nesdev.com
http://forums.nesdev.com/

Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)
http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16711
Page 2 of 12

Author:  gauauu [ Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

tepples wrote:
Sumez wrote:
Are you suggesting that people would have a different impression of the SNES CPU if DMA Design weren't sued over Unirally ?_?

Yes. It would have at least led to a more nuanced debate about what makes a system or game "fast".


Huh. The SNES was released in 1990. Uniracers wasn't released until '94,. In my small corner of the world, people had long given up the debates about console speeds by then.

Author:  Sumez [ Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Also, Unirally was released without problems, to a moderate amount of hype, too! They weren't sued until after its release, and it remains a common and relatively popular game.

Besides, there are plenty of other SNES games without slowdown. :) The problem isn't even widespread

Author:  tepples [ Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

gauaau wrote:
Uniracers wasn't released until '94,. In my small corner of the world, people had long given up the debates about console speeds by then.

The debates moved from your "small corner of the world" to the Internet, such as newsgroups and web forums.

Sumez wrote:
They weren't sued until after its release, and it remains a common and relatively popular game.

The lawsuit by the company that is now a Disney subsidiary still blocked a longer print run, sequels, and crossover appearances.

Sumez wrote:
Besides, there are plenty of other SNES games without slowdown.

But not many with slams against SEGA's mascot that are as direct as the "Hedgehog Mode" and "Not Cool Enough" parts.

Author:  Sumez [ Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

I guess it's a question of perspective? I never even heard of the lawsuit until many, many years later.

I also never really saw a relation between Unirally and Sonic back in the days. I can see it now that you mention it, but I don't think the game was ever intended as a "Sonic killer", it's a racing game with a focus on stunts and showing off, no one ever talked about it being blazingly fast.
I think I'll have to dig up some of the old magazines from back then, and see if anyone talked about it. I remember the game getting quite a lot of coverage.

Author:  tepples [ Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Sumez wrote:
I guess it's a question of perspective? I never even heard of the lawsuit until many, many years later.

And others may have never heard of the game in the first place because it couldn't get a cartridge rerelease, Virtual Console rerelease, or trophy cameo in Smash Bros.

Author:  adam_smasher [ Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Uniracers is also kind of unimpressive, to be honest.

It's fast, sure, but the tracks are also totally barren and visually hyper-repetitive. And as far as I remember it was only ever one-on-one, right?

This isn't just 20/20 hindsight, either; Wikipedia's "Reception" section implies that this was consensus at the time of release, too.

Author:  rainwarrior [ Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

adam_smasher wrote:
Uniracers is also kind of unimpressive, to be honest.

It's fast, sure, but the tracks are also totally barren and visually hyper-repetitive. And as far as I remember it was only ever one-on-one, right?

I love Uniracers, and I think it's one of my most memorable games for the SNES.

I never thought it was supposed to be technically impressive at all, though. That wasn't why it was good. It was just a fun game.

Author:  adam_smasher [ Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Oh, yeah, I agree. It's one-of-a-kind and a ton of fun. And as repetitive as the visuals are, I love them too - they're really stylish. But I don't see it swaying many 16-bit Console Warriors then or now.

(not that much of anything would sway them...or that it matters.)

Author:  Bregalad [ Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

psycopathicteen wrote:
Every debate between the 68000 and the 65816 is like that.

So, what about ignoring them ? This debate has already been done over and over, and every time the conclusion was the same.

Author:  Sumez [ Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

adam_smasher wrote:
This isn't just 20/20 hindsight, either; Wikipedia's "Reception" section implies that this was consensus at the time of release, too.


Of course back then I couldn't just go on the internet and scan through aggregrate review sites, so my impression is only based on a few contemporary reviews, word of mouth, and the general atmosphere around what games were coming out, but I remember most people loving the game. I didn't care for it myself as it's a racing game, but I'd think it did quite well.

And yeah, it's kinda off-topic... as you said yourself, it's not really an impressive game.

Author:  psycopathicteen [ Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Bregalad wrote:
psycopathicteen wrote:
Every debate between the 68000 and the 65816 is like that.

So, what about ignoring them ? This debate has already been done over and over, and every time the conclusion was the same.


I have a breaking point.

Author:  tepples [ Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

To make sure we're all on the same page about this 65816 vs. 68000 CPU debate, the conclusion last time was as follows:

  • Data bandwidth is a draw
  • Processing speed without large multiplies and divides is a draw
  • 68000 has an advantage for 16x16 multiplies and 32/16 divides when interrupt-driven raster effects are not in use
  • 68000 has an advantage for high-level languages (such as C) because of the 65816's segmented architecture and dearth of registers

Anything I missed?

Author:  Drew Sebastino [ Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

tepples wrote:
Anything I missed?

That's about right. The 65816 itself is honestly the least of the SNES's hardware problems. For one, you've got that slow ass, way-bigger-than-it-needs-to-be ram that limits the CPU. :roll:

Author:  ccovell [ Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

I missed the backstory, but the whole point of "logic" is that it can be independently verifiable using the same (old and established) rules for everyone, increasing the chances that a statement is true as more unconnected people test it.

Did I miss something? Or are you bristling at someone's logical conclusions?

Author:  TmEE [ Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

I'm only sensing rectal discomfort again...

Page 2 of 12 All times are UTC - 7 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/