Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

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mikejmoffitt
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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by mikejmoffitt » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:02 pm

psycopathicteen wrote:
Bregalad wrote:
psycopathicteen wrote:Every debate between the 68000 and the 65816 is like that.
So, what about ignoring them ? This debate has already been done over and over, and every time the conclusion was the same.
I have a breaking point.
Why would you read or care about these internet debates about vintage CPUs for vintage game systems, and then identify the arguments and motivations for the side you don't like as personally and emotionally offensive?

In other words, ignore them.

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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by tepples » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:20 pm

psycopathicteen wrote:There's also not really any performance benefit of having a max scroll speed that is less than 8 pixels per frame, because then you'd need extra code to distribute the "work load" between frames.
Yet plenty of NES games distribute the work load. Super Mario Bros. has its infamous(?) 21-frame counter. Super Mario Bros. 3 glitches if it's forced to move more than 4 pixels per frame. Thwaite and RHDE do some things every frame, some things every other frame, and some things only 10 times a second, when frames mod 6 (NTSC) or 5 (PAL) equals a certain value. (They need this 10 Hz time base anyway to clock the game's timer.) Haunted: Halloween '85 and its sequel run many enemies' AI only when frames is congruent to the enemy's position in the enemy table mod 8.

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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by psycopathicteen » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:25 pm

tepples wrote:
psycopathicteen wrote:There's also not really any performance benefit of having a max scroll speed that is less than 8 pixels per frame, because then you'd need extra code to distribute the "work load" between frames.
Yet plenty of NES games distribute the work load. Super Mario Bros. has its infamous(?) 21-frame counter. Super Mario Bros. 3 glitches if it's forced to move more than 4 pixels per frame. Thwaite and RHDE do some things every frame, some things every other frame, and some things only 10 times a second, when frames mod 6 (NTSC) or 5 (PAL) equals a certain value. (They need this 10 Hz time base anyway to clock the game's timer.) Haunted: Halloween '85 and its sequel run many enemies' AI only when frames is congruent to the enemy's position in the enemy table mod 8.
With scrolling it makes more sense for the NES, because the NES doesn't do VRAM dma.

I didn't think about using an object's slot number to determine to run collision or not. That would actually speed stuff up a bit.

Oziphantom
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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by Oziphantom » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:10 pm

Bregalad wrote:
Mayhem In Monsterland is on a Commodore 64 which is 8bits and runs at 1Mhz and it scrolls half as fast as Sonic - 8pf.
The very idea to use scrolling speed as a measurement of "CPU power" is utter nonsense and goes against any kind of logic.

As for the milk debate, yes the logic is fallacious. Because cow milk is harmless for cows does not mean it is harmful for humans - or that it isn't for that matter - it just proves nothing. And I guess we all agree that industrially exploit human milk would be... a weird idea at lest.
I think this is a hang over from the Spectrum vs CPC vs C64 debates. The Spectrum and CPC got put down because they were slow, game scrolling was jerky and slow. While the C64 won because it had smooth scrolling, and then when you get to MIM it was insane scrolling. While the CPC and Spectrum were just under-powered. The reason for the slow scrolling on a CPC and Spectrum is due to lack of CPU power. While the C64 was able to do it because of Hardware. But then a lot of earlier games had small windows and fixed colour scrolling which was blamed on CPU power. In the 8bit computer world, scrolling is very much a measure of CPU power.

So if you were one of the downtrodden CPC , Spectrum losers and then you got jipped again on the MD, the fact that the MD seems to and Sega advertised it as beating the SNES in the "old ways" you would cling to it. While us who actually now how the machines work know that they both have multiple screens wide pixel based hardware scrolling and the argument is pointless.

Also see Speedy Gonzales - Los Gatos Bandidos which is a bad sonic clone ;)

TOUKO
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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by TOUKO » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:47 am

Aaaah the good old debate ..

We all know that the 65816 is a crappy slow 8 bits CPU, and the 65xxx are all inefficient processors with an inefficient architecture .
And the best,i have also read that the 68k is more efficient with memory ..

And obviously,we all know that 32 bits operations are often used and are essential for 16 bits games .

If we are speaking about a PC, i'll go for the 68k all the days, because he is tailored for that purpose,but for a limited 16bits game system, the 65xxx are a better choice .

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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by psycopathicteen » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:50 pm

Yeah, and "loading" a sprite into OAM takes forever on such a puny CPU. So we got to make sure we load AROUND sprites in the OAM that aren't moving, or are moving only in one axis.

TOUKO
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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by TOUKO » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:11 pm

In think you mean by logic is this :

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread ... or-others)

:P

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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by Bregalad » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:01 am

At least that's what he meant by bullshit.

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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by TOUKO » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:36 am

:lol:

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Punch
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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by Punch » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:38 pm

"Comparing processors by their clock frequency is just like Sonic being depicted by SEGA with blue arms: BULLSHIT!"
-Unreleased episode of Penn & Teller: Bullshit

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psycopathicteen
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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by psycopathicteen » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:22 pm

I can't stand it when I see somebody pointing at something that is clearly just line scrolling in a Sega Genesis game and they're like "wow, the Sega Genesis can do 3D with it's faster processor." It's the same thing as the backgrounds in Donkey Kong Country 2, where they move the backgrounds every scanline to fake parallax scrolling. 68000 isn't drawing everything pixel by pixel.

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Punch
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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by Punch » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:28 pm

psycopathicteen wrote:I can't stand it when I see somebody pointing at something that is clearly just line scrolling in a Sega Genesis game and they're like "wow, the Sega Genesis can do 3D with it's faster processor." It's the same thing as the backgrounds in Donkey Kong Country 2, where they move the backgrounds every scanline to fake parallax scrolling. 68000 isn't drawing everything pixel by pixel.
On the other hand, it feels like the Mega Drive's 68000 is the best processor when talking about 3D polygon software rendering. Not that the SNES is incapable of doing that or anything.
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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by tokumaru » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:43 pm


psycopathicteen
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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by psycopathicteen » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:21 pm

Well, I would make a demo of StarFox running on a stock SNES if I wasn't already working on so much other stuff.

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tokumaru
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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by tokumaru » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:36 pm

psycopathicteen wrote:Well, I would make a demo of StarFox running on a stock SNES if I wasn't already working on so much other stuff.
You shouldn't do it if the goal is just to prove a point anyway. It's already hard enough to keep motivated when working on things we actually want to make.

I find the whole math behind 3D polygons a bit too hard TBH, so I don't think I could ever code something like that, specially considering the textured polygons, but I'd be very interested in seeing how fast the SNES would be able to handle Star Fox without the Super FX. I do think it would do worse than the Genesis though.

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