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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:22 am 
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Zelda represents the identity of each game. BotW, Skyward Sword, Wind Waker and Ocarina of Time are all very different approaches to Hyrule and the story (legend) of Zelda. You have the playful pirate Zelda, you have the Zelda that goes undercover to fight Ganon herself, and you even got the apparent romantic interest to Link.

Meanwhile, Link is a vessel for the player. I feel his design has changed as much as Zelda's, with some basic guidelines remaining intact. Zelda's clothes have changed more often (red to blue to a more consistent purple from OOT on), but she's always recognizable. If it feels like she changes more than that, I'd say it's because they usually tend to actually give her a personality too.

As for the timeline, I can't believe anyone cares about that. Nintendo sure don't.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:31 am 
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Zelda represents the identity of each game. [...] Link is a vessel for the player.


This.


Though I'm still waiting for them to turn the tables and let Zelda canonically be the vessel and Link a catalysator or object of the game. They considered it for BotW but went with the conservative approach anyway, with this expressed pretext (quote from memory): "But then we had this problem: If zelda was the hero, what would then link do?"

Oh i don't know, maybe be under a sleep spell or in a situation where he needs to be rescued or in a 100 year long stasis like he is in the beginning of the game? Not too hard to imagine. Damn, gender roles die hard.. :roll:

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If it feels like she changes more than that, I'd say it's because they usually tend to actually give her a personality too.


That's a good point. Link is basically this empty vehicle to ride most of the time, a bit like Samus up until Other:M but less extremely so. So when they give zelda a personality that's more fleshed out than links', it's almost bound to change in some way between productions.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:56 am 
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Pokun wrote:
Link is basically chosen the new ruler of Hyrule (whichever Zelda he picked as wife) holding the Triforce with its full potential.

Link wouldn't be the ruler. His love interest is the ancient Zelda, not the currently ruling one. And that one was never supposed to be a ruler to begin with since she was just the younger sister of the crown prince.

Pokun wrote:
Ganon, who he killed earlier, can't be resurrected without his blood.

I'm pretty sure they would have found a way to bring Ganon back or to create an even more impressive villain. (Back then, it would have been possible to create a new villain in every game.)
But Link's shadow was a pretty underwhelming final opponent for the final chapter.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:56 am 
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I always loved the typical gender roles though. But they could always make a spinoff with Zelda as hero. They did make Super Princess Peach after all, and she manages to do it while still not being an inch of a tomboy unlike Zelda. I guess it's part of her strength.

FrankenGraphics wrote:
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I don't get it. The only Zelda I can see there that had a big change without Link also having a big change is the Skyward Sword one, and that's mostly because she isn't a princess yet.
To be fair, the change from the christian cross to a proper triforce crest is a pretty dramatic and lore changing difference, and both have undergone a change of hairtone. Else, i think link is a lot less changing. I guess we just decode these renditions differently.
Oh Hyrule always had bibles and crosses, but it's just a change of style. Yeah I guess we do, or maybe I'm blind because Zelda's different looks are so established in my mind.


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NOA here and NOA there why are everyone so crazy about NOA and those stupid TV series and comics? They didn't make Zelda and they definitely don't decide what's canon. They never did and never will.


Because affection is not about canon. It's about experience. Because if you're from Europe, Australia, N. or S. America, what you experienced as a kid was NOA:s version and NOA:s side products. While the japanese version is the original and canon and that's a fact and a thing to appreciate in hindsight, i think denying or retconning ones' personal past experience would be artificial (historical revisionism on a personal level) and in discord with your true memory if you played these games in the 80s or early 90s in said regions. Obviously people are going to be crazy about NOA and "those stupid TV series and comics" - it's a genuine childhood experience for those living in these regions at that time, while the japanese version is not an experience they had at all. Whatever the japanese version said or displayed doesn't hold any nostalgic value for this generation/this group, however interesting it might be to study or rewarding to appreciate.
Oh I loved those comics as much as you did back in the day. It was the only media depicting my favourite game characters outside the games themselves. As later games released I quickly realized that those comics are quite poor representation of the world and has nothing to do with the canon. The comics aren't actually anything special if it wasn't for the games they are based on, while the games actually has proper story and character. The TV series was many times worse than the comics.

Sumez wrote:
and you even got the apparent romantic interest to Link.
Oh come on! Admit it, Link and Zelda always had the hots for each other. Anti-Zelda shippers always baffles me.

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Meanwhile, Link is a vessel for the player. I feel his design has changed as much as Zelda's, with some basic guidelines remaining intact. Zelda's clothes have changed more often (red to blue to a more consistent purple from OOT on), but she's always recognizable. If it feels like she changes more than that, I'd say it's because they usually tend to actually give her a personality too.

As for the timeline, I can't believe anyone cares about that. Nintendo sure don't.
Yeah I think she always had a Zelda air about her, just as Link has a Link air about.
Nintendo sure cares about the timeline. Well at least to the point that they bothered keeping it and even releasing it. When designing new Zelda games I think they are quite liberal of what they can do, they can always come up with something ridiculous that fills plot holes later.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:22 am 
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DRW wrote:
Pokun wrote:
Link is basically chosen the new ruler of Hyrule (whichever Zelda he picked as wife) holding the Triforce with its full potential.

Link wouldn't be the ruler. His love interest is the ancient Zelda, not the currently ruling one. And that one was never supposed to be a ruler to begin with since she was just the younger sister of the crown prince.
In the backstory the sleeping Zelda's father says he's not truly going to pass the Triforce of courage until a man with all the qualifying attributes appears, ignoring the normal law of throne succession to prevent corruptness because of the vast power the full Triforce gives you. Link is that man and he passes the test and receives the final Triforce. Who but Link is qualified to rule the kingdom after that? I guess he is pretty much forced to marry one of the Zeldas though or the royal blood will not be succeeded.

DRW wrote:
Pokun wrote:
Ganon, who he killed earlier, can't be resurrected without his blood.

I'm pretty sure they would have found a way to bring Ganon back or to create an even more impressive villain. (Back then, it would have been possible to create a new villain in every game.)
But Link's shadow was a pretty underwhelming final opponent for the final chapter.
Yeah well you can always think up of something. I think Link's shadow was an excellent choice of final opponent though (besides the fact that you can duck in a corner). The Link of Zelda 1 and 2 is a very powerful Link, he single handedly defeated Ganon when he still was almost a kid and qualified for the Triforce a few years later, mastering both the sword and different types of magic. At the end of Zelda 2 what would be a more fearsome enemy than a dark version of himself possessing his power? Conquering his dark side is the final test to qualify for the Triforce as at that point it's seemingly the only enemy he has left that can compete with him.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:20 am 
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Pokun wrote:
I always loved the typical gender roles though. But they could always make a spinoff with Zelda as hero. They did make Super Princess Peach after all, and she manages to do it while still not being an inch of a tomboy unlike Zelda. I guess it's part of her strength.

Have you played Super Princess Peach?
Her super powers are literally her female mood swings, it's the entire theme of the game. It's extremely distasteful.

But I agree. A playable Zelda in a non-CDi game is way, way overdue. I genuinely expected BotW would have had it back when they first teased her character in a trailer.

Pokun wrote:
Oh come on! Admit it, Link and Zelda always had the hots for each other. Anti-Zelda shippers always baffles me.

Image

Aside from the NES games (Zelda 2 obviously ends with the two making out), it's been hinted at best. Skyward Sword was the first game to outright establish a relationship between the two. I was actually very surprised that Nintendo would make it so hamfisted - I kinda liked the subtlety.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:15 am 
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Super princess peach

I think this game is good way on being as misogynist one can get without being sexually objectifying.

When i played it, this sequence was going through my head:
Designer 1: So um... let's make a peach game. As for character traits: Peach is a woman, let's focus on that solely. I don't know any women, not really, do you?
Designer 2: No but i think they have wild mood swings all the time, they seem to cry a lot too.
Designer 1: *scribbles*
Some office guy leaning in through the door: And they seem to use their emotions to manipulate their surroundings, like my ex.
Designer 1: *sribble scribble* ...aaand done! Another masterpiece to proudly add to our name.

The game in itself was pretty good, but personally i couldn't stomach the caricature-like premise and never went on to see it through to the end. The two friends who had played it too said something similar.

----

I like though for giggles (from video footage, never played 'em, never will) that zelda in her first cd-i title is somewhat of a sociopath;
-"Agh, youuu kiiiilled meee..."
-"Good :) "

There's also something creepy about her in the ending scene when she releases Link / plays him.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:07 am 
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I'm glad we see eye to eye on Super Princess Peach. I had never heard anyone bring this up before I played it, so I was kind of shocked to see it. It's embarassing.

Also, the game is not really good. It's charming enough that I trucked on all the way, but the game is ridiculously kid friendly - there's not really any way you can fail a stage, and every single obstacle is a puzzle that basically says "please to use this skill on this easily identifiable object that reacts to the corresponding skill". Very boring, which is sad because the visual polish of the game is great, and really feels like it could have been a solid sequel of sorts to Yoshi's Island.

FrankenGraphics wrote:
I like though for giggles (from video footage, never played 'em, never will) that zelda in her first cd-i title is somewhat of a sociopath;

I honestly think the CD-i games are better than their reputation. Sure, they aren't good games, and have some pretty damn broken collision detection, but I think they also have appealing qualities that help justify the game aside from the obvious unintended(?) hilarity of the animated scenes.
Kusoge for sure, but kusoge worth playing through, IMO.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:56 am 
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Hm, now that you mention it, i remember it lacked significant challenge. My overall impression (as far as i can remember) was i thought it looked really pretty.

It's just that i can't imagine myself getting a cd-i to begin with :wink: If i would, it would be specifically for the zelda titles!

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:58 pm 
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Yeah I'd play them as well if I could, only because of the Zelda license and their infamous kusoge status of course. Not sure it's worth getting a CD-i only because of those though.

Sumez wrote:
Pokun wrote:
I always loved the typical gender roles though. But they could always make a spinoff with Zelda as hero. They did make Super Princess Peach after all, and she manages to do it while still not being an inch of a tomboy unlike Zelda. I guess it's part of her strength.

Have you played Super Princess Peach?
Her super powers are literally her female mood swings, it's the entire theme of the game. It's extremely distasteful.
I haven't beaten it but I played it a fair bit.
But two Scandinavians unfairly bashing the game because of its theme, has my homeland really fallen that far into the extremist feminist propaganda over the past few years?
So the game is misogynistic because it focuses on Peach's typical feminine qualities? That side of her has always been a big part of her character, so I think it only makes sense that her own game would focus on those qualities.
Some people often complain that damsel in distress types of characters are helpless and useless (although they just can't see that their helplessness is part of their strength). Peach is one of few of them who manages to be a platform hero while still retaining 100% femininity, but then they find something else to complain about, her femininity in particular. I think it's just that they don't like her character, it's solely a matter of taste, not about being a misogynist.
If you consider feminine qualities to be a weakness I think you are just being unfair. There's no way a girl like Peach can compete with a man like Mario in muscle strength, that would just be unfair and stupid. Her femininity is her strength, and she knows how to use it.

Sumez wrote:
Pokun wrote:
Oh come on! Admit it, Link and Zelda always had the hots for each other. Anti-Zelda shippers always baffles me.
Aside from the NES games (Zelda 2 obviously ends with the two making out), it's been hinted at best. Skyward Sword was the first game to outright establish a relationship between the two. I was actually very surprised that Nintendo would make it so hamfisted - I kinda liked the subtlety.
Well in Zelda 1 it was enough that Link was the hero and Zelda was the princess that he saved, there was no need for the game to give any more hints. Skyward Sword gave the most hints and has the most romantic dialogue but they still intentionally leave it open for the player to imagine the rest in every game (and in Skyward Sword you can get pretty deep with another girl without it affecting anything else). It's really no different from most TV drama and other media with an open ending.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:13 pm 
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Pokun wrote:
has my homeland really fallen that far into the extremist feminist propaganda over the past few years?

I'm not sure finding tear geysers distasteful makes you a feminazi. :|

Pokun wrote:
There's no way a girl like Peach can compete with a man like Mario in muscle strength, that would just be unfair and stupid. Her femininity is her strength, and she knows how to use it.

I'm not sure I like this quote either. Mario has never been about strength. (Aside from breaking bricks, but even Peach can do that in Super Mario 3D World) It's Wario who is.

Even if not cannon, Super Smash Bros Melee is, in my opinion, the best form of Peach we've ever gotten. It's the perfect balance of daintiness and badassery and never treads over to hysteria like in Super Princess Peach. I can't say I ever took offense by the game, but I did find it a little disappointing because of this.


Last edited by Espozo on Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:22 pm 
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And although all the Zeldas are of the same royal blood line, Link is usually unrelated to other Links. One exception may be the ALttP Link who is, together with his uncle, the last descendants of the knights of Hyrule who fought Ganon.

For the most part I believe every Link and Zelda is the same person reincarnated along with Impa and the King of Hyrule (Zelda's father). This could still co-exist with the idea that Link in LTTP is descended from the knights of the Imprisoning War.

It's also interesting that LTTP is the last Zelda game to have any explicit talk about "bloodlines". The hero lineage concept makes more sense in Castlevania where Dracula can apparently smell the common dna markers in his latest opponent ("We meet again, Blood of Belmont").

Regarding the original topic, Zelda in Skyward Sword was very sheltered while the one from Twilight Princess was obviously battle-hardened. And it's often implied in the series that Hyrule fights wars or maybe even has civil wars, but we're never given any elaboration. One critic of Twilight Princess said the story is a jumbled mess with a big problem being the lack of focus on Zelda as a character. But it's possible that was done on purpose because this incarnation of her you don't want to know too much about.


Last edited by strat on Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:24 am 
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Pokun wrote:
But two Scandinavians unfairly bashing the game because of its theme, has my homeland really fallen that far into the extremist feminist propaganda over the past few years?
So the game is misogynistic because it focuses on Peach's typical feminine qualities? That side of her has always been a big part of her character, so I think it only makes sense that her own game would focus on those qualities.

You don't need to be "feminist" to recognize how stupid it is to base a main character on demeaning prejudices about her gender.
I don't care if the game is "misogynistic", and I never used the word. I care that the theme is embarassing and cringeworthy as hell. Peach can be as feminine as she wants, but she deserves a game where she's a hero, not where she wins by crying uncontrollable.

And yeah, she deserves it not because she's female or whatever, she deserves it because she's a well liked video game character with a long history. Just like Zelda.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:24 am 
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I was going to add that there's a difference between being feminime and being a caricature of being feminine, but forgot it. You know what they did there with SPP right? They took the traits of a toddler - not the traits of a femme - and masked it in the vestiges of femininity. They did so because they did focus on one and one only trait to use as the basis of both mechanics and premise: her gender. Ergo; they litterally belittle her by her gender. Seeing how few feminine representations there are in the mushroom kingdom, and they still decided to do that with one of the few; that says something too.

Yes, in many of the mario games she plays the role of a damsel in distress. No problem. Classic childrens' story scenario many can relate to. But here is a game about her and what she does for an adventure. And they botched it, imo. They made mario is a plumber, so he goes through pipes and it happens to fit the "swineherd rescues princess" archetype, which they crystallized in SMB1 even if it was there in DK. Princess Peach is a princess in a kingdom, so why didn't it appear as obvious for the designers to get inspired by the tasks of royal administration? For instance, there's a kingdom to govern, a royal family to represent, subjects to visit and help and keep safe. Because they were hypnotized by peach being a woman and didn't know how to handle it any other way, i'd say that's why. Current local politics aside, it's think it's still a tasteless premise for a game they way it was executed.

Finally, let's to the gender swap test. What if for King Knights' campaign in shovel knight, they focused solely on king knight being a man? What would it be about, if it was pushed to the same degree of exaggeration as super princess peach?


On misogynism...
I was the one using the word misogynist, so i'd better be the one standing for it. To be more exact, i said it was a good way on being as misogynist as one can get. Meaning games can probably get a lot worse. Anyway, I said so because what the team or person who designed this game relied heavily on the on the myth of hysteria; which associates feminimity with unrationality, distress, ungovernable emotional excess, or even as freud would have it, "lack of masculinity" (which a woman according to the same joker only can "regain" via motherhood). This myth-building around expressions and somatic symtoms categorized as hysteria in the past (but not by modern medicine) was historically and to this day in some ways still is used as a technique to invalidate womens' simple demand to be taken seriously. An extraordinarily aggressive example of this were the efforts to stamp out the suffragette movement, but it can take much subtler forms aswell. In other words, it (using hysterical caricatures) is and has been the practice to disarm and ridicule women. I cannot not see the cultural backdrop against which SPP is painted, so that made the game basically unplayable for me, and my friends too it seems. Now, you would think a 7 year old child who plays this game wouldn't know the historical backdrop, and that's in a way correct. Heck, it could even be potentially healthy and embracing to play a game if it were about expressing emotions, even when portrayed in exaggeration (pretty common in child media). That'd be great, i think. But at that age it has also already become abundantly clear what is generally percieved as high- and low-status. Those lines are already drawn in kindergarten and all over other child media. It (the game) doesn't exist in a social vacuum, and neither does its computer-human interactions. It is embedded in and created from attitudes (everything that’s cultural is), some more heavily loaded than others, and in this case, i find some of those attitudes disagreeable to modern times.

Not everyone will have the same experience, which is of course fine. If the experience of SPP is totally benign to someone, that's great.

I value just about everything you have written in this thread (especially challenging my views on link/zelda), Pokun, but i think that ringing the "extremist feminist" bell is a way to write off those who've had this other experience without having to touch the underlying subject.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:40 am 
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FrankenGraphics wrote:
misogyny

You're reading into it too much, please go read up on the five elements, before making such ridiculous claims. :roll:

Do note how the color, emotion, and general theme of each of the game's animations, match up with these elements exactly.

It's almost like the thought of belittling women never crossed their minds at all! Funny, that.
Seeing misogyny where there clearly is none, says more about yourself, than anything else.

Not to mention that the magic wand also affects many of the enemies, too! Not just Princess Peach! So there's also that.


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