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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:11 am 
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Does anybody know when was the first time that anything from "Donkey Kong" was mentioned in media referring to "Super Mario Bros."?

Mario starred in "Donkey Kong", but back then, Mario was created as a character that gets used in several games in different roles (like a referee in "Punch-Out!!" who even has a wife and children).
Shigeru Miyamoto also confirmed that he sees his characters as actors who can appear in different situations in every game.

So, Super Mario the plumber is just one of several roles of the Mario actor, even though it became his breakout role and he's now exclusively shown in that role.

But in theory, back in the 80s, one could have concluded that the adventures of Mario Jumpman the carpenter play in a totally different continuity as the Super Mario games.
Just like Charlie Sheen plays a Charlie in "Two and a Half Men" and a pretty similar, but separate character also named Charlie in "Chaos City" and then another one in "Anger Management".

So, I'd like to know:
Which is the oldest available reference that shows that the story of "Donkey Kong" is actually part of the "Super Mario" continuity and that Mario Jumpman and Super Mario are not just two roles played by the same actor, but are actually supposed to be the same character?

Obviously, when "Donkey Kong" for the Game Boy came out in 1994, this was already established since the ending of that game shows Mario, Pauline and Donkey Kong in the Mushroom Kingdom.

But are there any older references that connect the two series?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:24 am 
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Super Mario Kart had Donkey Kong Jr. and Mario sharing a game in 1992, though not the "original" DK himself. I guess that still counts as far as continuity goes, though?

There might be earlier references but that was the first one that came to mind.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:22 am 
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Ads for Atari Mario Bros mentioned "Mario from Donkey Kong and his brother Luigi", but that's not Super Mario Bros.

Do you count Mario Bros as being in the Super Mario Bros series?

Besides that, DK does make a cameo in NES Open Tournament Golf.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:38 pm 
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Revenant wrote:
Super Mario Kart had Donkey Kong Jr. and Mario sharing a game in 1992, though not the "original" DK himself. I guess that still counts as far as continuity goes, though?

Sure, that's a definite proof: A main character from the "Donkey Kong" franchise in a game that clearly belongs to the "Super Mario" brand.

Dwedit wrote:
Ads for Atari Mario Bros mentioned "Mario from Donkey Kong and his brother Luigi", but that's not Super Mario Bros.

Even if it was, that's just someone mentioning a real world fact (the same character as from that other game), but it's not really an in-universe reference.
(It's Charlie Sheen from "Two and a Half Men" starring in his new show "Anger Management".)

Revenant wrote:
Do you count Mario Bros as being in the Super Mario Bros series?

In general, yes, since that game appears as a bonus round in "Super Mario Bros. 3".

On the other hand, that was still at a time when Mario was used as a character for all kinds of games, so the source would of course be better if it referenced that the Super Mario, the princess-saving hero in the Mushroom Kingdom, is the one that also defeated Donkey Kong in the past.

Dwedit wrote:
Besides that, DK does make a cameo in NES Open Tournament Golf.

That's one of those questionable sources where Mario is just a character in whatever sports title they came up with.
Unlike "Super Mario Kart", there's no real indication that this game is actually supposed to be canon to the "Super Mario" series and that Mario, Luigi and the two princesses aren's just their "actors" playing golf players.

Same with the B-mode cutscene in "Tetris": It has Bowser and Donkey Kong in the same picture, but it also has Link, Pit and Samus Aran, so this scene is obviously just a cameo by the Nintendo stars.


So, the oldest reference as of now is Donkey Kong Jr. in "Super Mario Kart" since it's a game clearly set in the "Super Mario" universe, belonging to the "Super Mario" brand and otherwise having no characters from other franchises.

Is there anything even older?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:10 pm 
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Mario Kart is the first time I ever noticed it. It was also the first time I ever saw any references to Donkey Kong at all since the original games.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:17 am 
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I guess Mario Kart is the best example of an early game that connects the two worlds, but it's still a mascot racing game meaning the appearing characters could be interpreted as cameos (lately even Link and Pacman appeared in the series). The two main Mario series where already kind of separated at the time and Donkey Kong Jr appeared as a cameo in other Nintendo games at the time (Super Punch Out for example).

Still I like to see the two series to be connected somehow however. I recently bought Mario Odyssey but I've yet to reach New Donk City.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:37 am 
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Pokun wrote:
I guess Mario Kart is the best example of an early game that connects the two worlds, but it's still a mascot racing game meaning the appearing characters could be interpreted as cameos (lately even Link and Pacman appeared in the series).

In this specific case, I tend to disagree. Donkey Kong Jr. is the only character that's not direcly from the "Super Mario" series and he's from a series that also stars Mario as the player character.

Hence, the conclusion that "Donkey Kong" and "Super Mario Bros." are set in the same continuity is still the more likely assumption here instead of the idea that DK Jr. is an out-of-universe cameo appearance and he simply happens to be from one of the series where Mario also played the role of the hero.

So, I do consider this an actual connection of the two series.

However, I'm still interested if there's anything older. An official artwork that connects the two or maybe some statement that says that DK was Mario's first rival before Bowser or something like that.

Of course, the wording is important. If the statement is simply that Mario became the star of "Super Mario Bros." after he debuted in "Donkey Kong", that's not a statement about canon, but just a statement about the real world fact that this character was used in both games.

However, using the words "Mario's rival before Bowser" or saying Pauline is his ex-girlfriend, that's something in-universe again and has more weight.

The "Donkey Kong" game for the Game Boy is a clear example of that: In the end, the four main characters are shown in the Mushroom Kingdom. But this game is a much younger example anyway.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:10 am 
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I think the Mario Kart series is in a cameo grey area not too different from NES Open Tournament Golf (although Super Mario Kart clearly takes place in the Dinosaur Land from SMW while NES Open is just a golf game where Mario characters were put into).
But I agree that Donkey Kong Jr was probably selected because he is a Mario character and was a much more clearer choice at the time than lets say Link or Kirby. I never saw a problem with it, and at the time of release of Super Mario Kart I still thought of the Donkey Kong series and the main Mario series as to be one series. Actually I still think so, although the two moved further apart since then.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:59 am 
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Pokun wrote:
at the time of release of Super Mario Kart I still thought of the Donkey Kong series and the main Mario series as to be one series. Actually I still think so, although the two moved further apart since then.

Whether it's one series or two is rather unimportant. That's just naming and organization.

The important thing is that both series play in the same continuity: The "Donkey Kong" games are canon in the "Super Mario" storyline.

But I'm not sure whether this was always supposed to be the case.

Back in the 80s, Mario was a stand-in for whatever role was needed to be filled.
So, it's possible that "Donkey Kong" was not supposed to be the story that happened to Mario before he fought against Bowser. But that Mario the carpenter and Mario the plumber were two different roles in two different universes/canons/continuities, played by the same "actor".

At the time of "Super Mario Kart", this was obviously not the case anymore and Donkey Kong and Bowser as well as Pauline and Princess Toadstool were clearly supposed to exist in the same storyline, with Mario becoming a plumber after having worked as a carpenter.

This was confirmed in "Donkey Kong" for the Game Boy (ending scene plays in a "Super Mario Bros." level), the later "Mario vs. Donkey Kong" games (dolls in the form of Princess Toadstool etc.), "Yoshi's Island DS" (Baby Donkey Kong as a character) etc.
The latest reference to it is New Donk City in "Super Mario Odyssey".

But I'm wondering when the two series were first officially connected.
Or was that always the case and Miyamoto intended "Super Mario Bros." to be a sequel to "Donkey Kong" (in terms of story) right from the beginning?

That's why I'm looking for the oldest reference that somehow connects Mario from the Mushroom Kingdom with Donkey Kong.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:52 am 
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Yes I meant the same continuity not the same series. Mario Bros was the first game without Donkey, and Super Mario Bros started the main Super Mario series for real by introducing Peach, Bowser and the Mushroom kingdom. We can only speculate if their initial intention was "rebooting" the series or if they just didn't bother too much with such details as continuity. Mario was appearing everywhere only because Miyamoto wanted him to be a mascot character, so there was probably no continuity thinking when making him a referee or using him in Wrecking Crew, that was just marketing.

I haven't played Mario vs Donkey Kong a lot but yeah those games are definitely proof enough to convince me the two series indeed are in the same continuity.

Oh gotta play more Mario Odyssey sometime!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:22 am 
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DRW wrote:
That's why I'm looking for the oldest reference that somehow connects Mario from the Mushroom Kingdom with Donkey Kong.

Oldest in the in-universe timeline, or oldest in the date of publication? (If this were Star Wars, would Revenge of the Sith be considered older than Return of the Jedi?)

The Game Theorists have pieced together clues scattered throughout main series games, concluding that the current Mario is Mario Mario Jr. (video)


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:17 am 
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Are we talking about what's "canon" in an abstract video game series about a mushroom kingdom again?

Mario Kart has Bowser doing kart racing with the other guys for fun. In Super Mario Bros. he turned everyone into stone and actively tries to murder Mario.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:12 pm 
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tepples wrote:
Oldest in the in-universe timeline, or oldest in the date of publication? (If this were Star Wars, would Revenge of the Sith be considered older than Return of the Jedi?)

Oldest in the date of publication of course. I was talking about the question when Miyamoto considered these two series to be part of the same universe instead of two unrelated series with simply the same "actor".
I mean, what good would be the information about the first chronological reference? This one would be "Yoshi's Island DS" where Baby Mario, Baby Bowser and Baby Donkey Kong appear together, so there's nothing to discover here.

Sumez wrote:
Are we talking about what's "canon" in an abstract video game series about a mushroom kingdom again?

Not directly. In the current discussion, we already know what's canon. I merely want to know when Miyamoto first considered the "Donkey Kong" series and the "Super Mario" series to be set into the same universe.

Since he confirmed that he regards the characters as actors who fill roles as they are needed, not every appearance of Mario means that this is Super Mario the plumber.

For example, in "Punch-Out!!", Mario seems to have children who he doesn't care for:
Attachment:
PO.png
PO.png [ 5.37 KiB | Viewed 1214 times ]

But this doesn't mean that this is true for our heroic plumber from the Mushroom Kingdom. It's just yet another role of Nintendo's star actor.

On the other hand, there's absolutely zero doubt that the Mario from "Donkey Kong" is supposed to be exactly the same role as the Mario from "Super Mario Bros." Those are not just two different roles. Mario Jumpman is Super Mario. And I merely want to know: Since when was this confirmed?

There's obviously no connection to "Donkey Kong" in the "Super Mario Bros." NES games. For example, the backstory doesn't say: "After saving Pauline from Donkey Kong, Mario got a help call from the Mushroom Kingdom."

And I started this thread to find out whether there's any reference of Donkey Kong in "Super Mario"-related material before "Super Mario Kart" came out.

tepples wrote:
The Game Theorists have pieced together clues scattered throughout main series games, concluding that the current Mario is Mario Mario Jr. (video)

O.k., please spare me with this shit. I think as far as videogames go, this is the single-most hated-by-me YouTube channel that exists. That moronic channel is single-handedly responsible for ruinining discussions of the Mario storyline.

You know, I also like stupid exaggerated theories that are created just for fun. Mario is a communist. Bert is evil.

But you know when it stops being funny? When people reference those theories without a single hint of irony.

For example, another famous theory, also used by Game Theory, is that Mario is evil: Mario is just the executioner of an oppressive dictatorship, he commits mass murder against his own people by smashing bricks, he mistreats his brother, he mistreats Yoshi and Bowser is actually the good guy.

And the sad thing is:
People don't talk about these theories in a parodistic way. No, they talk about them, treating them at face value and actually arguing in favor of them in a completely serious manner.
They just cannot take this lighthearted video game series and regard it for what it is: A fairytale world where a heroic plumber rescues a princess from an evil turtle king.

No, they have to interpret it as some crapsack world where you play an oppressing psychopath who destroys friend and foe alike.
All just because people are morons and they have to follow that smartass theorist with his bullshit channel.

Back in the day, everything that was said on TV was true. Today, everything some YouTuber says is true.


Same with that Mario Sr./Mario Jr. crap:

Today, you cannot go to a YouTube comment section of a video that talks about the Mario storyline without reading a hundred comments of stupid 13 year olds who say stupid shit like:
"It's common knowledge/You seem to forget/Nintendo confirmed that the Mario from "Donkey Kong" is the current Mario's father. You should really watch some more Game Theory."

No, he's not, dammit!

While there might be some confusion about the relationship between Cranky Kong, Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Jr., there was never a single hint that there are two Marios.
Mario is the same character in "Donkey Kong" and in "Super Mario Bros."
Claiming otherwise is like taking two artworks of the character, showing them to Shigeru Miyamoto and saying: "Mr. Miyamoto, you created two different Marios. Father and son."
What do you think would he say?

Besides, "Super Mario Odyssey" shits all over this fucking theory that is already shit to begin with.


You are a game developer yourself. You know how creating characters works. So, I don't know why you seriously reference such a stupid know-nothing channel.
Last time, you also accepted the theory that Toad from "Super Mario Bros. 2" is the same character as the blue Toad from "New Super Mario Bros. Wii" because both have blue dots on their mushroom head, totally ignoring the fact that the NES has a three colors per sprite limit and that the SMB2 artworks prove that this is nothing but said technical limitation and not a conscious design decision.

And again: You reference this without any hint of irony or parody, so I have to conclude that you consider this an actually valid piece of information and not in a "Huh huh, do you remember that funny theory? Pretty stupid, but entertaining fan fiction" way.

Why?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:25 pm 
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