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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:40 pm 
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rainwarrior wrote:
I don't follow internal Linux politics, but I remember this having such terrible immediate backlash, and obviously this decision was undone. Is it something you actually think they'd ever try again?

(And FWIW, don't Windows 8 and Mac OSX finder already do something equivalent anyway?)

Yes they did: they started showing effectively spam in people's /etc/motd, also using a domain that was owned personally by an employee, to talk about HBO TV shows. The entire effort was driven by one single person at Canonical, Dustin Kirkland, who is a "Product Manager", previously "VP of Product". Here are the details, you can read them if you so wish. You will find that this developer "screwed around" in the process as well, making very bad decisions (engineering-wise) early on when trying to push this out, and end-users had to call him out on his bad choices (here's the ticket). Here are the details:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+sour ... ug/1701068
https://lwn.net/Articles/726902/
https://news.slashdot.org/story/17/07/0 ... otd-claims
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14662088
https://twitter.com/koitsu2009/status/8 ... 5686799360

I have a generally negative opinion about Canonical for this reason, but the reality is, Ubuntu is one of those incredibly well-supported OSes in the server environment and by cloud providers, so it tends to be "easy to use". The OS itself does do a **ton** of "phoning home", however, and disabling all of that is always something you have to do post-installation (i.e. it's already phoned home by the time you have the chance to remove it). This has been a common "WTF" point for a very long time now. And no, the installer DOES NOT ask you if you want to opt-out (unlike Debian's installer; FreeBSD also asks you this, but *defaults* to opt-out). I could talk more about this, but here's a gist that shows it: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/fdc1c ... 1-txt-L245


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:02 pm 
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Ubuntu is a steaming heap of bug-ridden crap that crashes every few days, ships browsers without support for keyboard input, doesn't support audio output in games and calls power management options being ignored a 'feature'. In other words, it's just like Windows.

I use Debian these days. Still have to put up with systemd, but it doesn't crash and and they actually bother to check their updates work, so it's good enough for me.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:43 pm 
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koitsu wrote:
systemd
gauauu wrote:
systemd
Rahsennor wrote:
systemd
Just to be perfectly clear: You can still use sysvinit in Debian. I still do.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:31 pm 
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Congratulations for feeding the troll guys. The OP wasn't part of our community, and you've been wasting your saliva all the way along.

(And I'm pretty sure we've had this debate before anyway).


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:57 pm 
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lidnariq wrote:
koitsu wrote:
systemd
gauauu wrote:
systemd
Rahsennor wrote:
systemd
Just to be perfectly clear: You can still use sysvinit in Debian. I still do.

I've heard this same argument on Ubuntu. And guess what happens if you try it? Very interesting sh** breaks, and in very peculiar manners. Comparing dmesg is amusing; it's almost like... gasp... nobody actually tries doing it. It's one of the first things I tried doing after having to upgrade systems to 16.04 LTS.

As for Debian: if it's something you can reliably switch back to on Debian, then why does Devuan still exist? *confused look*


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:58 pm 
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Bregalad wrote:
Congratulations for feeding the troll guys. The OP wasn't part of our community, and you've been wasting your saliva all the way along.

(And I'm pretty sure we've had this debate before anyway).

I'm more amused by the use of the word "our" than anything else. Enlighten me!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:54 am 
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Bregalad wrote:
Congratulations for feeding the troll guys. The OP wasn't part of our community, and you've been wasting your saliva all the way along.

(And I'm pretty sure we've had this debate before anyway).


The OP started a thread that many of us find interesting. Doesn't sound like a waste to me.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:16 am 
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hopeyeu wrote:
Well, I'm basically out of space on the OS and plan on starting fresh with a bigger partition, but I'm beginning to wonder if maybe Ubuntu isn't the best way to go.

This is one of the few things in Ubuntu I think was really dumb, that it doesn't clear out old, no-longer-used versions of things. Anyway, the following instructions usually work:
Code:
Ctl-Alt-T                               #to bring up terminal window
sudo su                                 #to escalate permissions
 #(then enter your user password for your computer)
dpkg --get-selections | grep linux |grep -v deinstall
             #to show the installed packages, filtered by packages with the search term "linux" to shorten the list
 #(look for the old kernel packages, e.g. "linux-image-extra-3.13.0-59-generic  install")
uname -a                                #to show what kernel version you're currently using (don't uninstall this one!)
aptitude remove linux-image-extra-3.13.0-59-generic linux-image-3.13.0-59         #to remove those two packages, stack more into the list as needed in the command
 #this will clear up the space needed to proceed, then you can proceed with any other method to update packages.
aptitude safe-upgrade                   #one method of updating.  The GUI works also

The 59 in the example will keep moving up. I think they're in the 140's now.

I'm using the Gnome Flashback Compiz user interface. I like it much, much more than what comes with Ubuntu now.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:27 am 
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Have you tried sudo apt autoremove to purge unused packages, particularly old linux-image versions?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:02 pm 
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For me MateBuntu, wich is Ubuntu with the Mate desktop works fine.
Of course, Caja has some problems on my multiseat environment, but switching for Thunar solved it.
I'm using this multiseat setup for atound 10+ years, and have felt like an orphan when Ubuntu switchet to Unity.
I originally was planning to use Slackware, but when I found Ubuntu (7.04 at the time) I discovered it was a lot easier to setup.

I guess that since it's a desktop setup I don't have some of the problems a server environment has.
It's not totally failproof, but at least I can let my kids/wife/mother/father/whoever use the Internet freely without getting at least a couple of viruses/spyware/adware a week. :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:36 pm 
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tepples wrote:
Have you tried sudo apt autoremove to purge unused packages, particularly old linux-image versions?

I'll look into it. Thanks. Is that the whole command? Is there anything I have to be careful of?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:41 pm 
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Yes, that's the whole command, as described in answers to this question on Ask Ubuntu. It looks for packages that are no longer required by any package that has been manually installed and removes them. I assume Ubuntu keeps old versions of Linux around to let you revert to an old kernel from the boot menu if a new kernel fails to boot. In that case, the proper precautions would be as follows:

  • Reboot before you autoremove, so that you know the newly installed kernel is a working one.
  • Read carefully the list of packages that it will remove, with your fingers on Ctrl+C, before you answer yes. If it offers to remove 20 lines of package names, your system might be in a semi-broken state. This might happen after you remove a PPA that includes newer versions of a package that Ubuntu's own repository also ships.

Usually, when you sudo apt upgrade, APT will also suggest running an autoremove if it is needed.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:22 pm 
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lidnariq wrote:
Just to be perfectly clear: You can still use sysvinit in Debian. I still do.

Got an explanation of how to do that, without breaking everything as koitsu pointed out?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:58 pm 
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All I can say is that it works for me.

I am deathly allergic to GNOME components, though.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:21 pm 
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Rahsennor wrote:
Ubuntu is a steaming heap of bug-ridden crap that crashes every few days, ships browsers without support for keyboard input, doesn't support audio output in games and calls power management options being ignored a 'feature'. In other words, it's just like Windows.

I use Debian these days. Still have to put up with systemd, but it doesn't crash and and they actually bother to check their updates work, so it's good enough for me.

Ahem—Ubuntu is Debian-based. I've been using Ubuntu for many years, and the few times I can remember it ever crashing was because I didn't have the computer set up yet for disc-swapping, and I ran my 6GB of RAM full. (I sure wish firefox would improve their memory-allocation and fragmenting.) That's not to say I'm totally happy with everything Ubuntu has been doing recently though. It used to be I only had to re-start a couple of times a year (when updates required it), but lately they've been requiring it much more often. They take entirely too lightly this matter of re-starting. After it says I need to re-start to incorporate the new changes, it may be a week or two before I can wrap things up enough to do so. There are a few other minor irritations, like when I click on a .pdf and it sometimes asks me if I want to open it with my text editor.

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