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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 7:28 am 
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I think there's definitely a moral difference between not taking action against every/most case/s of questionable trades taking place on a site because of its users, and if the site itself (or the people behind it) did it. Like, if NA had a curated shop for counterfeit goods. This is not a defense, just pointing out these are two different things.

In all likelyhood, most offenses against the community rules established on facebook go unmoderated, too. Would one then say facebook, as an entity and in itself, is e-bullying (and what not) because some users on facebook e-bully?

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 1:29 pm 
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tepples wrote:
I was heading toward trying to distinguish "NA encourages coinheaven's behavior" from merely "NA tolerates coinheaven's behavior".

Again, what difference does this make?
I'm arguing against those kinds of reproductions in general. Everyboy who inserts a Seal of Quality to unlicensed games is doing a dick move. The NintendoAge forum is merely an example.
So, it really doesn't matter that my example might not stand a test in a court. Because I'm not trying to sue someone. I'm just discussing moral obligations when creating reproductions, taking stuff that I saw at NintendoAge as an example.

FrankenGraphics wrote:
In all likelyhood, most offenses against the community rules established on facebook go unmoderated, too. Would one then say facebook, as an entity and in itself, is e-bullying (and what not) because some users on facebook e-bully?

Facebook is a website for basically everything. So, no, you cannot connect the behavior of certain users to Facebook itself.

However, NintendoAge is a community that's pretty unified.
With the number of different reproductions that are always sold in the same manner ("I created 50 copies of a reproduction. Please tell me if you want one"), I'm pretty sure that the NintendoAge forum staff is not against those activities. In the contrary, I assume they would take pride in the statement that this or that reproduction was done by their community members and distributed through their forum threads.
I mean, it's not like we can say: "You're really doing NintendoAge wrong. They hate those reproductions as well. Some of those sales probably simply slipped through the moderators' radar."

Again, not that this would have any relevance for the topic at hand.

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 7:03 pm 
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Well, you might notice that this forum we're on permits discussion and help with repros too:
https://forums.nesdev.com/viewforum.php?f=28

The main difference between what's permitted here and NintendoAge is that this forum is for makers/builders, and that forum is for collectors. A big part of NA is letting its users buy sell and trade things from each other, and repros are not a banned category.

DRW wrote:
However, NintendoAge is a community that's pretty unified.

It really isn't. Quite a few users here have said that they want all reproduction talk banned from this place, but clearly the administrators have decided to allow it. The repro subforum's existence is not a reflection of every member's viewpoint, and it's not even remotely representative of consensus. It exists because of an executive decision, and there are a subset of users (myself included) who think it's an acceptable topic for discussion. It's pretty much the same situation at NA, and I think they have a larger variety of users than this forum too. (Users who don't like the repro forum generally just don't participate, they don't jump into repro discussions and interrogate those involved.)

You've drawn a lot of conclusions like "if a person cares about X, then they can't possibly want Y", and it's really not reflective of what people are actually doing here. Maybe you're confused about why people want these things, but all I can say is that there's more factors than you're permitting in your mental model of people here, and many of them are weighted decisions rather than black and white. Not every issue is critical.

Someone who doesn't like the fake Nintendo seal might still want the repro anyway because the fake seal isn't an ultimatum issue for them. Not every purchase is an endorsement of the complete package. There are certainly people that only want 100% original authentic things, but there's tons of people who just want a box and cart that look and feel nice that will play in their machine.

Context always matters too, words that are literally a lie aren't necessarily a lie in practice. If nobody's being deceived, it's not really a very good lie, but it might still be a good joke, or otherwise fun to say.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 7:26 pm 
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rainwarrior wrote:
The main difference between what's permitted here and NintendoAge is that this forum is for makers/builders, and that forum is for collectors.

That's what baffles me the most: Wouldn't a collector want a product that represents exactly what it really is?
I.e. if I'm a collector and I buy a product from NintendoAge, I would want it to be labeled with "NintendoAge", to distinguish it from any other random reproduction of the same game. Why are collectors suddenly interested in purchasing products that pretend to be something else?

rainwarrior wrote:
A big part of NA is letting its users buy sell and trade things from each other, and repros are not a banned category.

I don't mind reproductions per se, I just hate reproductions that try to pass as legitimate releases.

rainwarrior wrote:
Context always matters too, words that are literally a lie aren't necessarily a lie in practice. If nobody's being deceived, it's not really a very good lie, but it might still be a good joke, or otherwise fun to say.

Just have a look at this:
www.ebay.com/itm/272650711893

This guy seriously seems to think that this game is from a rare prototype run. Not a single word about a reproduction. That's where this little "joke" leads to.

Just a little text at the bottom of the box, manual and cartridge label: "Reproduction by coinheaven". If they don't even do this, they're assholes, plain and simple.

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 7:51 pm 
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I'm not defending it, I'm just saying that not everybody wants what you want, and nobody cares what you think they should want. To a lot of people this stuff is perfectly benign.

I think the fake seal is dumb. I wouldn't make this repro. I didn't make this repro. I didn't buy this repro. I can still see why people might want it, though, and it's pretty clear that a bunch of people actually do want it.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 7:54 pm 
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This is a bit off-topic, so I'll use a smaller font. This is mainly in reply to rainwarrior's post but not so much a reply *to* him as much as a general history lesson...

One of the reasons (historically) why repro discussions never came up here was due to the forum being hosted on Parodius. We maintained a very strict no-money/no-financial-transactions policy -- hosted users (which included users/visitors of those hosted sites) couldn't participate in any kind of advertising or transaction that involved money (i.e. homebrew games could not be sold/advertised, same with used parts, or anything else). There were several reasons for this which I'd rather not go into in this thread (start a separate thread or just ask me if you want details), but we operated this way from day 1 until closure in August 2012.

This policy put a kibosh on most repro discussions, since most (but not all) were from people who wanted instructions on how to wire up/build (or troubleshoot failed) repros in attempt to Get Rich Quick(tm). Occasionally someone with chutzpah would post about repro help and insist it was for their own personal project, not for financial gain, and they'd get some help. The number of repro posts gradually began to grow from around 2008 onward. If you look at the link rainwarrior posted, you'll see that there tends to be a pretty large increase in the post counts starting around 2011 or so, and definitely after 2012.

When Parodius closed down and the site moved to be hosted by WhoaMan, that no-finance limitation was lifted. This gave way to larger and large numbers of posts solely about repros, regardless of driving force. Given the gradually-increasing quantity of posts about the subject, eventually there was a public discussion about the matter: should topics about repros be permitted? It was a heated discussion mainly due to everyone having different opinions on the matter, but in the end it was decided that there should be a separate board/section (Reproductions) made, since those who were against them could have a semi-easy way to filter them out/ignore them. Older posts (pre-Reproductions-section-creation) were moved into Reproductions by admins.

Because of the earlier days, I think NintendoAge became the defunct place to go to for repro help. IIRC, the NA forum tends to be filled with mostly non-technical folk, while nesdev tends to be the opposite. But it didn't take long for repro-folk to realise that the hardware-focused "electro wizards" resided here. Thus, we now have a substantial number of regular posts about repros (most being, summarised, "I tried to do one and it failed. Why?").


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 8:06 pm 
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rainwarrior wrote:
I'm not defending it, I'm just saying that not everybody wants what you want, and nobody cares what you think they should want. To a lot of people this stuff is perfectly benign.

We can turn your logic around as well: Just because people don't care about my opinion doesn't mean that I'm wrong. Just like these people don't care about my opinion, I don't care about their opinion.
--> To a lot of people this stuff is perfectly a fraud.

That's what arguments are for: They stand for themselves, independent from the person who says them (so it doesn't matter that people don't care what I think). And the arguments are either good or bad.
My opinion doesn't matter, but their opinion doesn't matter either. What matters are arguments.

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 8:30 pm 
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DRW wrote:
Just because people don't care about my opinion doesn't mean that I'm wrong.

I don't understand what you're saying here. What exactly are you saying is "right" or "wrong"?

DRW wrote:
To a lot of people this stuff is perfectly a fraud.

You started this thread asking why people make these things, and why people buy these things, so I addressed that question. To tell you why it's a fraud is to answer a question you didn't ask and clearly already know the answer to. Not a single person here has debated whether these things are fraudulent.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 8:45 pm 
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rainwarrior wrote:
DRW wrote:
Just because people don't care about my opinion doesn't mean that I'm wrong.

I don't understand what you're saying here. What exactly are you saying is "right" or "wrong"?

I merely wanted to point out that the statement "Other people don't care about your opinion" is basically a non-statement: Yes, I know that these people don't care about my opinion. And I don't care about theirs. So, why even bring up the fact that person A might not care for the opinion of person B?

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 8:54 pm 
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DRW wrote:
So, why even bring up the fact that person A might not care for the opinion of person B?

Because you decided to jump into a NA thread and harass people who were otherwise having a good time, and nobody was being effectively lied to or taken advantage of (except Konami, maybe, though I don't think they'd really care).

Like, if your question is really "why do these people like this thing that I don't like", I think several people have already tried to answer that, but judging by your responses I don't think that's actually what you want. What I think you're really doing is telling them to stop doing it. My comment about whether people care about your opinion is directed at that.


DRW wrote:
I know that these people don't care about my opinion. And I don't care about theirs.

This is a pretty clear admission that your entire action there is in bad faith.

Tulpa's reponse to you in that thread is maybe more direct/clear than what I am saying. People are willing to have a discussion about these things, but that's not really what you're doing.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 9:18 pm 
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rainwarrior wrote:
and nobody was being effectively lied to or taken advantage of

Except whoever buys this cartridge from eBay, thinking it's a rare release (including the seller who offers it as some rare release). But I've already mentioned this.

rainwarrior wrote:
DRW wrote:
I know that these people don't care about my opinion. And I don't care about theirs.

This is a pretty clear admission that your entire action there is in bad faith.

Again: I care about arguments, not opinions in the vein of "it's fun, duh".

People who defend this shit should tell me exactly: Why is this still justified? Why is it impossible that these games are considered legitimate releases by less experienced buyers? Why is it a good thing that the reproduction does not name the actual author?

Why is this not exactly the same as faking a Rolex watch or a Gucci bag and actually putting the Rolex or Gucci brand on it instead of writing "Made in China" in the place where the logo would be?
Because the game didn't come out in the US? Bullshit! So, if I fake a watch that's not in Rolex' lineup, I would be justified to put the Rolex name on it again because "nobody can be fooled since this specific watch doesn't exist as a legitimate Rolex watch"?

That's what I wanted to hear from these people: Actual arguments, if they even have them.
"We like to play make-believe" and "Because it's fun" is not an argument, it's a bunch of bullshit.

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Trailer: https://youtu.be/IYXpP59qSxA
Gameplay: https://youtu.be/Eee0yurkIW4
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 12:32 am 
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I think another aspect is the power of OCD. They want a collection and the boxes all need to be the right size and the same shape and the text all lined up. Oh wait there is this silly yellow disk stuck on the end... hazah somebody has made a Box for said game and now its just like the others and its all neat and ordered and lines up and their OCD is satisfied. If you put some text on it that says "This is fake" that then ticks the OCD again..


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 1:16 am 
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I agree with pretty much everything rainwarrior is saying, but I'll give DRW one point in this debate - NintendoAge (and that's NA, not the individual user who is selling these bootlegs) should make rules about what's allowed in a "repro" in order to peddle it on their forum, and imitating legit releases should be a big no-go, including putting a "seal of quality" logo on something that never received the seal of quality.

Personally I'm not happy with either NA or NesDev's choices to support obviously illegal reproductions, but I understand that it's going to happen no matter if I like it or not, and I think if you are going to allow it anyway, you should use the opportunity to keep it under control. Like... legalizing marijuana but making rules about who can sell it and where you can smoke it.

That's just my point of view though, and discussing it here is not going to change anything.


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 1:31 am 
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koitsu wrote:
but in the end it was decided that there should be a separate board/section (Reproductions) made, since those who were against them could have a semi-easy way to filter them out/ignore them.


Wait, how do I filter out the reproduction forum? I can't find anything in my settings or on the active topics list.
I never understood the need for subforums at all on a phpBB forum, but if there's actually a way to filter them out, it would make sense, and make life a lot easier for me...


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 2:14 am 
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sumez wrote:
Personally I'm not happy with either NA or NesDev's choices to support obviously illegal reproductions, but I understand that it's going to happen no matter if I like it or not, and I think if you are going to allow it anyway, you should use the opportunity to keep it under control. Like... legalizing marijuana but making rules about who can sell it and where you can smoke it.


I thought of this as well. Without NA, there'd either be a new collected platform for repros/bootlegs, or all you'd have is ebay + various standalone shops. Why would that be bad? Well, on NA you have a community, people are not as anonymous, there's a sense of social accountability among peers, you can communicate, and there are means to close down problematic traders. Again correlating to drugs (which is me exaggering things considering the gap in tragic effects): Most advocates for clean syringe handouts recognize that injecting drugs is bad in a multitude of ways. It's just a worse outcome if there's *no* pragmatic approach at all, so the question then becomes if you prioritize moral symbolism (arguing it has a preventing effect on its own) or concrete damage prevention. In the the world of repros/bootlegs, you have pcb:s which may damage consoles, destruction of original cartridges, and risk of fraudulent agendas on top of the bootlegging. All these risks would be higher if Ebay + standalone eshops were the sole outlet for bootlegs.


---


As for the bootleg itself:
Personally i admire the artistry involved in making something looking authentic even though it isn't, or even when something playfully dance around a trademark or some such. I don't think i'd be interested in buying it, but can understand the reasons why someone would just like to watch a shelf of things that look neat together.

A few cultural side notes:
In chinese, there's a word that translates to "fake" or "counterfeit" but lacks the negative connotations that fake has in the occident. Rather, it implies a sort of cunning ingenuity and justified act of rebellion you have bragging rights to. Sometimes the art lies in making it indistinguishly close to the original, or sometimes it is in blatantly and playfully gets things wrong, like a sport sweater saying "adodas" or harry potter fan fiction posed as an official release but mysteriously lacking the authors' name. Quoting a wikipedia article:

"Historically, "shanzhai" is sometimes used as a metaphor to describe bandits who oppose and evade the corrupted authority to perform deeds they see as justified. One example of such bandits is the story of Water Margin[2]

The use of "Shanzhai" to refer to imitation products comes from Cantonese slang, in which "shanzhai factory" means an ill-equipped, low-end and family-based factory. "

and

"Shanzhaiism (山寨主義) is a philosophical term denoting a Chinese style of innovation with a peasant mind-set.

Shanzhaiism has an equivalent English term: tinker".

I think we could call small-scale repro/bootleg artists tinkerers in this sense.

In christian western culture (accentuated during the 18th century by philosophers, writers and artists and perpetually reinvigorated), there has been a sort of myth building around the lone, creating genious and authorship. I think this ideal is bound to crumble or at least change in an ever-rationalizing industrial/information society where we are more and more confronted with situations where creation is non-personal or communal in varying degrees. This has always been the case to some degree but i feel as if it is becoming more accentuated now. Yet there is a psychological need to identify with what you create, or at least to mirror/define yourself in what you create. I wonder how that will play out. Please note i'm not making an attempt at delegitimizing authorship. Just saying that the features of authorship are changing in culture and over time.

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