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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 6:31 pm 
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Sumez wrote:
Exactly. The absurd idea of technology as being disposable wasn't commonplace at the time.

Probably because new advancements in computer hardware were actually significant enough to make older models obsolete, rather than planned obsolescence bs (Apple and "battery saving").

FrankenGraphics wrote:
Also, this was still a time where you could use the same phone a lifetime and cars were built to be easy to service.

Probably because, from what I've heard, cars in the 80's had major reliability problems. :wink:

FrankenGraphics wrote:
The expansion port (and its abandonment in favour of the super famicom) as well as the expansion on a game pack design philosophy is perhaps in support of this claim.

The problem though, is that the SNES, N64, and GameCube all had (woefully underused) expansion ports as well, and Nintendo clearly wouldn't have thought that these consoles were going to last them, I guess an eternity, like what the GameFaq article is suggesting Nintendo thought of the NES, but while I don't know much about GameFaq's credibility, I (and I'm sure others) have many reasons to believe that this story is false:

Bregalad wrote:
Definitely it was different, but also, how could companies make profit if they didn't "encourage" their customers to renew their equipment regularly ? Also, it was probably already obvious in 1983 when the Famicom came out that video game technology was constantly evolving, I suspect some arcades in that very year were probably technically more advanced than the brand new FC.

Really, by the time the NES got a wide release in the US, it was already pretty grossly underpowered; hell, it was about this time that regular arcade machines were tying the SNES in raw bandwidth if nothing else.

ccovell wrote:
Referring to the OP, the idea that it was the Mega Drive that spooked Nintendo into making a 16-bit system is bunk (bullshit for you direct folks). Here's an article referencing that Nintendo's president announced the 16-bit system in September, 1987:

http://www.chrismcovell.com/secret/SFC_1988Q3.html

This is far in advance of the June 1988 announcement of the MD.

Exactly.

Nintendo couldn't have quite predicted the console hardware arms race and definitely couldn't have predicted multicore, 1+GHz CPUs, but still, with how fast computer hardware was advancing in the 80's, coupled with the limited room the NES can even be expanded, (unless you like 4 color 256x224 graphics) I find the notion that they were going to stick with the NES forever very hard to believe.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 6:47 pm 
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Espozo wrote:
Really, by the time the NES got a wide release in the US, it was already pretty grossly underpowered; hell, it was about this time that regular arcade machines were tying the SNES in raw bandwidth if nothing else.

And these arcade machines were hella expensive. Nintendo waited until the tech became affordable (200 USD) before shipping it. This is also rumored to have happened in the N64 era, with Nintendo developing the GBC and a more ambitious project called Atlantis in parallel. Various cut-down versions of Atlantis appear to have become the GBA and DS.

Espozo wrote:
Nintendo couldn't have quite predicted the console hardware arms race

I don't see how not. ColecoVision was a distinct improvement over the Atari 2600 and Odyssey2 that preceded it. The TMS9918 family VDC in the CV was so close to pixel-perfect relative to 1981 arcade tech that it's rumored to have inspired the NES PPU architecture.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 7:01 pm 
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tepples wrote:
And these arcade machines were hella expensive.

Well, I'm not talking "Winning Run" level; I'd imagine the average (if you can even find what the "average" is) arcade machine costed like what, $500? (Without the game board.) And this is with arcade operator mark up, not like consoles where they were being sold at a loss.

tepples wrote:
Atlantis

First time I'm hearing about this; do you have any credible links on it?


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 7:29 pm 
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I was referring to the price of the game board when new. In the case of a console, the "machine" would be the user's existing TV along with the set of composite video encoder and joypad decoder that commonly goes by "SuperGun".

As for Atlantis: https://nintendoeverything.com/a-look-i ... successor/


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 7:30 pm 
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Espozo wrote:
tepples wrote:
And these arcade machines were hella expensive.

Well, I'm not talking "Winning Run" level; I'd imagine the average (if you can even find what the "average" is) arcade machine costed like what, $500? (Without the game board.) And this is with arcade operator mark up, not like consoles where they were being sold at a loss.

And here we have a good example of generational gap knowledge. So let someone older educate you a bit:

Try US$3000, but often more. Consider that the standard Pac-Man stand-up arcade, when it was released in 1980, went for $2400. Before you reply, stop and think about the time period; $2400 now might not seem like much, but use this site to get an idea of what $2400 in 1980 would be dollar-wise equivalent to now. Starting to get the picture? Arcades were EXPENSIVE.

Also, you seem to be under the impression that arcade chassis back then were generally free-standing and general-purpose. That's simply not the case: arcade chassis were intended for use with the game they came with. Yes, you could tear them apart a bit and make them work with some other game, but sometimes a lot of work was involved. Not all CRTs are universal in size or mounting, not to mention not all games used CRT monitors (consider games that used vector-based displays like Wells Gardner, e.g. Tempest, Asteroids, Black Widow, etc.). The complexity varied. It wasn't a question of time and money either, it was also a question of whether or not it was even worth modding the cabinet for another game; it might be easier as an operator (and it often was) to just sell or trade the game for a different one.

It wasn't until much much later -- early 90s -- that companies started making their chassis a little more "commonplace" so that you could swap in/out PCBs, marquees, and control panel covers. But there was no guarantee. I'm also avoiding subjects like Neo Geo multi-game cabinets because those were unique in themselves, as well as "unique" arcade games (ex. ones that used guns, or super unique ones like Taiko no Tatsujin).

There are a few guys here who can talk more at length about this subject; mikejmoffitt is one, and I owned a couple arcades in my time (sold one to Mike, actually!). But the point is: no, arcade games were not cheap, and were often very unique/specific.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 8:12 pm 
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Espozo wrote:
arcade machine costed like what, $500? (Without the game board.)

Oh, wait, I meant the arcade machine system board, not the entire cabinet. Yeah, for the entire machine, it'd easily be upwards of $1,000. I largely based my assumption off the fact that the barebones Neo Geo AES package (one controller but no games) went for $400 in 1991, just one year after the MVS was released, which I think qualified as at least average for the time (high-end Sega and Namco arcade boards obviously still wiped the floor with it).

Of course, it's difficult to just straight compare old console to old arcade hardware, because a lot of the hardware in an arcade machine was "offloaded" onto the game board (no vram for storing graphics data.)

And yeah, true, I don't think it was really until the CPS1 that arcade machines could really reliably be divided into a system board and a game board, unless I'm wrong about this as well. You also still had Konami games and some other oddities like Raiden II though where the arcade PCB was built for one game specifically (there's only one board in the case of Raiden II at least).


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 8:31 pm 
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I didn't even bring up the fact that not all games are JAMMA either. *chuckle* For example, Capcom's Trojan isn't. If used in a non-Trojan cabinet, you end up having to build JAMMA adapters, blah blah. My point is that arcades are generally "unique" on a per-game basis, barring some exclusions, and they *aren't* cheap (they weren't then, nor are they now. They were semi-affordable in the very late 90s/early 2000s, but that has changed (for the worse) due to collectors and hoarders). The number of "unique" aspects to each game vary across the board (ex. PCB pinout, unique joystick or control panels, vector vs. CRT, and in some cases, even unique voltages (this is actually rare, but when it does happen, it's a nightmare. There are some games which used JAMMA but with voltages rather than common -12V +5V -5V combo, so if you ended up throwing them on a common PSU, you'd potentially blow stuff up or have a non-functional game). That's all I have to say on the matter. You can read my blog sometime for stories/tales of why arcade stuff is a bloody nightmare.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 8:46 pm 
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koitsu wrote:
they *aren't* cheap (they weren't then, nor are they now. They were semi-affordable in the very late 90s/early 2000s, but that has changed (for the worse) due to collectors and hoarders)

Tell me about it; I cannot get an M92 for what I'd consider an even semi-reasonable price to save my life. Look at this nonsense:

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I've never seen so many bids and watchers 2 days in advance...

And the irony is that you can easily find a Hard Drivin' PCB for less than $200, when the entire cabinet cost $10,000 when it came out...


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 10:52 pm 
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FWIW, I've got a board sitting around that will be for sale soon. I just replaced nearly all the electrolytic caps. The thing is... it shouldn't go for $1000, but it does. Or you can get one for $900. Unlike these weirdos, I don't sell my boards for exorbitant amounts. There's nothing rare, unique, odd, or even "prestigious" about this game, yet the prices are stupid. Because, like I said recently in an unrelated thread: it's all about money. Other than some niche communities, these types of elevated prices are what you'll find on most commonplace auction sites. I don't sell stuff at these prices; ethically I just wasn't meant for this type of world.

In case you're curious about boards I own/owned and what they sold for in the past year, here you go. I guarantee if you talked about this on some arcade forum, people would say "lol whoever sold those boards got ripped off" -- because like I said, today it's about money or hoarding, not about the hobby or appreciation of the classics.
Attachment:
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Anyway this subject is now way, way, way off-topic so that's enough from me.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 2:45 am 
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Yeah, don't use eBay as a pointer for arcade prices. They have gone up a lot over the past few years, but eBay has always been a little too much ahead with some of the more uncommon ones. Either way, current market prices have absolutely no relation to what they were going for (or their production costs) when they were new...

Espozo wrote:
I find the notion that they were going to stick with the NES forever very hard to believe.

Obviously they didn't. I just doubt they were planning ahead in the same way people are now talking about PlayStation 5, 6 and 7 (which are unlikely to happen anyway).

The Famicom was Nintendo's first real console, and they just wanted to sell games. Originally, third party support wasn't even in the cards. And why not? Surely it turned out more than profitable for them. It just wasn't a part of their roadmap. Who at Nintendo could have known that they would be so succesful that they would be "expected" to make a follow up to their system? No one else had made a follow up console at the time (unless you count the rapid gradual improvements of the odyssey series :P). This was a new way of thinking.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 4:08 am 
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ccovell wrote:
Referring to the OP, the idea that it was the Mega Drive that spooked Nintendo into making a 16-bit system is bunk (bullshit for you direct folks). Here's an article referencing that Nintendo's president announced the 16-bit system in September, 1987:

http://www.chrismcovell.com/secret/SFC_1988Q3.html

This is far in advance of the June 1988 announcement of the MD.

Ok, I wondered from the begining whether this story was true, as it sounds suspicious. Sounds like the answer is "no", thanks for pointing this out.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 4:17 am 
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koitsu wrote:
There's nothing [...] "prestigious" about this game, yet the prices are stupid.

It's made by Irem. :P

koitsu wrote:
like I said, today it's about money or hoarding, not about the hobby or appreciation of the classics.

And it really pisses me off. I can guarantee you that I'll put an M92 board to better use than anyone else. That is, unless they are also interested in programming it. :lol:

Not an arcade game, but as I've said before, it's really scary to me that R-Type III that I got three or so years ago for $70, now never goes for less than $130...

koitsu wrote:
I don't sell stuff at these prices; ethically I just wasn't meant for this type of world.

:beer: People like you are our last line of defense...

Sumez wrote:
Yeah, don't use eBay as a pointer for arcade prices. They have gone up a lot over the past few years, but eBay has always been a little too much ahead with some of the more uncommon ones.

What better way is there to shop for this sort of stuff?

Sumez wrote:
Obviously they didn't. I just doubt they were planning ahead in the same way people are now talking about PlayStation 5, 6 and 7 (which are unlikely to happen anyway).

So no set routine 5-6 year console "lifespan." Although, the Xbox 360 and PS3 kind of broke this, and now mid generation refresh consoles are doing it again.

Bregalad wrote:
Sounds like the answer is "no"

Yeah, I really wonder where GameFaq pulled this from... I don't know if there was some sort of missenterpretation somewhere, because common sense would dictate that this story weren't the case.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 6:04 am 
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Espozo wrote:
What better way is there to shop for this sort of stuff?

You just gotta keep your antennas out. Find other people who dig the stuff, forums (for Irem stuff, especially ArcadeOtaku and Shmups would be obvious choices), Facebook groups, etc. Peer to peer sales.

And of course YAJ, but those prices are starting to get inflated, too.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 7:36 am 
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If the Neo Geo costed about $500 to $600, then I would expect that's how much the motherboard would cost. However, that's not including profit, and the fact that SNK's main revenue was in arcade machines. If they made the console version too cheap, arcade owners wouldn't buy the cabinets.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 7:54 am 
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Well, it appears to have been $400 (I'm surprised to find out that the $650 package actually comes with two controllers and two games.) I don't think they'd go at a loss for something as niche as it was, but an MVS is definitely going to be more expensive than an AES for no reason other than that they can get away with it.


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