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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:32 am 
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Nicole wrote:
A lot of people tend to accept "what is legal" as "what is moral" uncritically when it comes to things like copyright law.


Well everyone has their own moral compass so yeah you got to follow "what is legal" as "what is moral" in this kind of discussion otherwise it's all a waste of typing. Shitty as modern copyright laws are they're still the law, after all.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:42 pm 
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It's unfortunate that they decided to take a symbolic dump on the hard efforts of the homebrewing community to promote their game. It's even more frustrating that youtuber John Riggs mirrored their marketing at the very start of his review: "Is it just another homebrew, or is it worth the three years' wait to play this game?" :cry: He then goes on to state he's a huge fan of homebrew, so i guess that evens it a little. But it is still a wierd opening line to me.

edit: he mentions it is lincensed. i guess Syndey hunter is a license? But it kind of comes of as if this was a licensed SNES game?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjMJZbLpVcE

Honestly, most of the games i think are worth playing today are precisely homebrews. Just because there's a D.I.Y spirit in a lot of it and that the quality range is very wide, naturally doesn't mean it's all crap. But i'm preaching to the choir here.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:39 pm 
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FrankenGraphics wrote:
"Is it just another homebrew, or is it worth the three years' wait to play this game?"

Is it just another homebrew, or a mediocre Flash game, that anybody can play for free? :P
https://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/619706

I've come to the conclusion that most homebrew games are low-effort garbage.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:54 pm 
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Then again, wouldn’t that be true for games in general? Lots and lots get made. Few stand out.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:58 pm 
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The phrase was derived from Sturgeon's observation that while science fiction was often derided for its low quality by critics, the majority of examples of works in other fields could equally be seen to be of low quality, and that science fiction was thus no different in that regard from other art forms.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:24 pm 
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For the purposes of this reply, define "homebrew" as hobbyist games for a platform as well as commercial games published after the conclusion of a platform's commercial era, and "mainstream" as commercial games published during its commercial era. So even if you follow Theodore Sturgeon's recommendation to judge based on the 90th percentile in quality, the 90th percentile of homebrew games is lower than the 90th percentile of mainstream games.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:58 pm 
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FrankenGraphics wrote:
he mentions it is lincensed. i guess Syndey hunter is a license? But it kind of comes of as if this was a licensed SNES game?

In this case I would love to see the (in)famous "Nintendo Seal of Quality" on it.
I couldn't find it on the pictures, did someone else find it? :roll:


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:04 pm 
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I can't facepalm hard enough for this.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:51 pm 
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There are two orthogonal meanings of "licensed". One is "approved by the console maker", which covers (for example) everything in Apple App Store, PlayStation Store, Nintendo eShop, etc. The other is "using a well-known product identity subject to exclusive rights". All four combinations are attested in the pre-1997 NES library:

  • The Terminator is licensed (by Nintendo) and licensed (by Hemdale, owner of copyright in the film The Terminator).
  • Journey to Silius is licensed (by Nintendo) but not licensed (by Hemdale, who chose LJN instead, forcing Sunsoft to create an original product identity instead).
  • Road Runner is unlicensed (by Nintendo) but licensed (by Warner Bros. Pictures, as it's an adaptation of Looney Tunes short films).
  • Bible Adventures is unlicensed (by Nintendo) and unlicensed (The Bible is old enough that its copyright has expired, as has copyright in early modern English translations).


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:01 am 
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tepples wrote:
Oziphantom wrote:
Well Homebrew does have a bad name. In that they are more "look I did a thing" rather than an actual commercial quality game.

Would that be my "small in scope" category?
I don't think size is the critical factor, although in the "tech demo" I pulled a neat trick like mid frame pallete changes etc would be the small in scope case. I think its more when the release comes with the "unexpected Oscar acceptance speech"
Guy's I've always wanted to make my own NES game since I was a kid and thanks to all of your help today I realised that dream and here is my "...." thank you all so much.. I'm now going to fly out the window like Tuxedo Mask... bye "

There are people who look down on Indie games as not really being "real" games. I.e if your game is good enough and quality, why isn't it being published by a publisher? Homebrew is a tier below Indie games.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:25 am 
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Oziphantom wrote:
I think its more when the release comes with the "unexpected Oscar acceptance speech"
Guy's I've always wanted to make my own NES game since I was a kid and thanks to all of your help today I realised that dream and here is my "...." thank you all so much.. I'm now going to fly out the window like Tuxedo Mask... bye "


I really see no problem in someone being proud about his work and wanting to share his excitement with a community that helped him, directly or not, to push through the end.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:05 am 
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So, (edit - insert: according to those who hold the view that indie isn’t real) a ”real” game needs to have the actual content creators being alienated from their work to some degree? :wink: And broad strokes decided by sales experts? That’s kind of contrary to the game landscape i grew up in as a kid, with sid meiers civilization, commander keen, and diablo. These were all largely successful pc games where the creative direction still resided within the content creating team. Or going further, some of my best game experiences where in the mac shareware scene, completely indie/no publisher.

A lot of good music has been record label-less. Today, it’s even hard to find good music on the major outlets. It’s all made for one cardinal purpose. If something is good, it has become almost accidental.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:17 am 
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Punch wrote:
Oziphantom wrote:
I think its more when the release comes with the "unexpected Oscar acceptance speech"
Guy's I've always wanted to make my own NES game since I was a kid and thanks to all of your help today I realised that dream and here is my "...." thank you all so much.. I'm now going to fly out the window like Tuxedo Mask... bye "


I really see no problem in someone being proud about his work and wanting to share his excitement with a community that helped him, directly or not, to push through the end.


There is nothing wrong with it, if fine for people to do it.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:01 am 
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Quote:
The Bible is old enough that its copyright has expired


This made me laugh.

Also, for some reason, made me wonder about the legal issues related to hacks. Like, if a hack author of a very popular licensed game was angry that a repro maker was selling copies of his game. He would have, probably, no legal recourse for stopping that.

Or, if it LESS bad to hack an unlicensed game that was an illegal clone of a real licensed game. Like, I can't think of an example. Never mind.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:03 am 
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Taking my ironies and bad jokes aside, I think it would be fine to the guys diminish the homebrew community if, and only if, they didn't get any kind of help from it.
But if they're telling homebrews are not real games, but got help from this same community, it's like using all the hard work of these people as a disposable doormat.

Homebrews can be bad? Sure!
But I think there's enough great homebrew games to simply disallow this kind of generalisation.
This case is even a lack of knowledge about homebrews or simply another case of ingratitude.


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