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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:04 am 
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Dude. Don't replace the Mario example. I think it's such a great, classic example, and by being a game everyone knows, it makes it easier to relate to for newcomers.
That image is a classic example of "fair use". No lawyer anywhere would take up that fight, and Nintendo wouldn't care to begin with. They are fighting people who are pirating their games right now - images using Nintendo properties are everywehre, and unless it's something Nintendo would do anything to avoid being associated with, those are safe.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:24 am 
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Sumez wrote:
Dude. Don't replace the Mario example. I think it's such a great, classic example, and by being a game everyone knows, it makes it easier to relate to for newcomers.
That image is a classic example of "fair use". No lawyer anywhere would take up that fight, and Nintendo wouldn't care to begin with. They are fighting people who are pirating their games right now - images using Nintendo properties are everywehre, and unless it's something Nintendo would do anything to avoid being associated with, those are safe.

The exact same same information is conveyed using different and non-copyrighted graphics. A different (non-Nintendo) game could also be used, but tepples chose to use an independent homebrew, which is universally safe. The case linked in previous posts already demonstrates, through both photos and text, that Nintendo at least right now is being sensitive. As I said earlier: in cases like this, small additional details end up setting precedents for future cases.

In short: it's not worth the risk. You may disagree and that's fine -- I do agree that using a game "that everyone knows" brings better comprehension of information, but right now the risks are higher. This may also be a matter of perspective given our geographic origins: you live in a country where DMCA doesn't apply, while I do (as does this site). And no I don't want to get into a discussion about laws of nations (but yes I am aware of Denmark's strange stance on dealing with piracy, which seems to vary depending on who's in the position of Culture Minister that year). :-)


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:14 am 
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To my knowledge, Denmark doesn't have any strange stances on it, and aren't doing anything to help further piracy - quite the opposite (or maybe that's what you are referring to?). Personally I'm a strong opponent of genuine copyright violations.
DMCA is a crazy concept for sure, but it has absolutely nothing to do with posting pictures of copyrighted material. Fair use applies internationally, otherwise we wouldn't be able to have (potentially) unbiased press coverage of anything.

I think you are being way too paranoid.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:39 am 
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On the other hand, though, there are lots of screenshots here (such as "My emulator fails to render SMB/DK properly. It now looks like this."), that could be troublesome to the same extend, even though there isn't a single intention of promoting copyright infringement, and I don't think they should be replaced or removed, unless "something" really happens(this is one of the reason the homebrewed test ROMs exist, but you can never be completely sure with the accuracy if you only use test ROMs).

Tepples' example is good though, as it still is a good idea to replace such content with a more legal alternative whenever available (read: as long as someone cares to make the alternative version), so that in case "something" happens, we won't have say, Wiki pages explaining some technical aspects with a big red X(the screenshots mentioned above are more temporal, and they more or less serve their purposes once the problems are solved, so it isn't as large a problem losing them).


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:44 am 
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I think that if we replace the visual explanation of how super mario bros updates the scroll seam with an all-original homebrew example, it needs to be accompanied by a GIF showing the actual WYSIWYG scrolling that the first GIF was explaining. And a link to the game. And mentioning that this example is exactly how super mario bros does it, for comprehension.


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replace such content with a more legal alternative

both alternatives are equally legal. even though what's legal might not be of concern to the agent.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:38 am 
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FrankenGraphics wrote:
I think that if we replace the visual explanation of how super mario bros updates the scroll seam with an all-original homebrew example, it needs to be accompanied by a GIF showing the actual WYSIWYG scrolling that the first GIF was explaining.

What's the difference between your "actual WYSIWYG scrolling" and the "Output" in the bottom half of the animation?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:50 am 
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The output is stepped and synchronized with the upper part. What i meant was that it’d be beneficial to show a loop of the game scrolling in real time prior to all of that, which would serve to bridge the gap of not having a precomception of the game and its behaviour.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:02 am 
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<sarcasm>
As a Canadian, I was sure that America was the land of the free! I guess I learned wrong, it' was the land of the lawer's absurdity, eh?
</sarcasm>

Jokes aside, knowing (maybe not in details) what Koitsu went through, I think it is better to be safe than sorry until the storm calms down. It's not like hell will freeze over if we remove that screenshot, right? ;)

edit:

fixed the not in the freezing part, since that's the real expression.


Last edited by Banshaku on Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:47 am 
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I read through the complaint. That particular site drew their attention because not only did it distribute a vast library of games, new and old, it also provided an online emulator that enabled direct play to the pirated wares. Marrying ROMs with emulation crosses a line. They also tagged on trademark violations because the site profits from ads and donations.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:23 pm 
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Here are my thoughts.

- Instead of Nintendo spending time and money trying to sue someone for hosting old roms, just spend that money instead developing a brand new hot game that people will buy.

- You can sue all you want, but thanks to the internet no matter how many sites you take down just as many can pop back up. No one can defeat the internet.

- My advice to video game companies is to make great games and make profits on them, but also know when to let them go. If your game is 30 years old and people are hosting it for download then that is just the natural course of things. Don't worry about the past, but focus on the future. Don't protect old games. Make new ones.

- Sites which host roms give free publicity and advertising to the original companies and characters. A person may download some roms and fall in love with the characters, then as a result they go and buy merchandise in the form of stuffed plushies, action figures, statues, figurines, amiibo and display them in their rooms thus supporting the companies after all.

- Piracy to some extent can help the video game industry. In some countries some people do not have access to certain games or game consoles and piracy may be one of their only options. For example, Brazil is notorious for not importing good from other countries.

- Instead of Nintendo shutting down fan games and rom hacks, why not create a partnership program were the game can be hosted on an online store for download and the profits are split between the developer and the company. Don't go against the flow as a company. If there is a market for fan games then allow it.

- Any company who acts like their copyrights and trademarks are the most important thing in existence is living in a false reality. Copyrights eventually expire and games will enter the public domain soon enough. One day you will actually legally be able to host Super Mario Bros 3 for NES on your website and actually charge for the download when it enters public domain. If a game enters public domain and someone makes a rom hack of it, they can then get a new copyright on it to protect their new work.

- No video game company should treat their fans like crap issuing take downs and suppressing their fan made work. The reason why a company earns profits and can exist in the first place is because it is the FANS who buy their products. The customers make the company. A company without any customers cannot exist in the long run. A video game company owes their existence to their fan base.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:58 am 
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You are aware that Nintendo is in fact making a ton of new games, and most of them are highly popular and sell really well?

Erockbrox wrote:
- Sites which host roms give free publicity and advertising to the original companies and characters. A person may download some roms and fall in love with the characters, then as a result they go and buy merchandise in the form of stuffed plushies, action figures, statues, figurines, amiibo and display them in their rooms thus supporting the companies after all.
They are however, also getting away with blatantly illegal, copyright infringing piracy, hosted right there for anyone to just click on and download without a hassle, leading to a general impression among people that this kind of stuff is fine, many actually thinking it is legal.
I am honestly amazed that they have been able to get away with this kind of stuff for so long.

You can argue from now on till judgment day about the PR value of pirated video games, and what is morally right or wrong in the act of doing it. You might even be right on a few points. But that doesn't change the fact that it is completely illegal, and copyright laws exist for a good reason.
These aren't just people breaking copyright laws either, these are people who are actively making money on properties created by other people. I cannot see how you would possibly argue that that should be allowed.

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- Any company who acts like their copyrights and trademarks are the most important thing in existence is living in a false reality.
I'm not sure you understand how companies work, then. Copyrights and trademarks are pretty much essential for them to be able to do the first thing you suggested - making new games that sell well.

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Copyrights eventually expire and games will enter the public domain soon enough.
Seems you don't really understand how copyright laws work either.


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- No video game company should treat their fans like crap issuing take downs and suppressing their fan made work.

Finally, this one I can get behind. Some other companies, like Capcom and even Sega have been actively supporting that stuff. However, it's a completely different discussion.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:40 am 
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It may be a very simplistic way of thinking but how about asking them directly what they think about homebrew programming for non profit as a hobby? Whouldn't their legal department answer the question if it comes from one of their customer? I may be too naive but I wouldn't mind to ask them. I may ask them (without any hope of an answer anyway) like I did for Battle kid v3 issue in Japan. At the least Columbus answered, I woudln't see why Nintendo wouldn't answer an honest question isn't it?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:38 am 
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Maybe i'm paranoid, but i'd advise against it.

-Even if new games for the NES are perfectly legal, so were unofficial games in the 80/90:s. They were still targeted.
-their official stance on freely available emulators is very negative, since so many individuals use them as means to play illegally copied games (piracy).
-It doesn't matter that NesDev user have a great code of conduct and care about the legality of things. In effect, big companies are sometimes more concerned with control than legality.
-A lot of the knowledge base we have here was retrieved with reverse engineering, due to lack of a good full documentation. While it works very well for something like the ben heck show to reverse engineer gadgets as entertainment, it is easy to see why a company who has produced the object that has been reverse engineered would be alarmed. It's not in their control, and thus, a warning flag.
-I’d guess that insofar some part of the corporate body in question is aware of NesDev, it’s view on it islinely muddy and conflicting. It takes a lot of assessment (work) to have an insight in what NesDev and its wiki is. The answerd we’d get, if any, would not be a guarantee for anthing, or a full-bodied declaration of N:s views and intentions (which are also likely to change over time). I would assume an answer would be improvised by a staff member fairly within a field guidelines. The staff would need to spend a lot of time assessing the question. Maybe it needs to be taken higher up, and then it’s a reversed SNAFU.

The risk i’m seeing is All it takes is one beaurocrat who is either overzealous, nervous, or feels the need to demonstrate that s/he is contributing to some metric of their deparments' rate of efficiency, to bring unnecessary trouble to the table.

Besides, many of us are involved in commercial activity such as releasing physical cartridges and sometimes hiring each other. To the taxman, that’s for-profit ventures. It’s no good claiming homebrew is nonprofit. While it’s very hard to turn a profit and noone is looking to get rich here, it’s not a nonprofit hobby. I’m not sure why the profit/nonprofit statement would be relevant at all. Assuring it is nonprofit (again not true for many of us), implies that it would somehow be fishy if it was. I wouldn’t want to spread that idea.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:43 am 
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While NES homebrew is obviously completely legal (why wouldn't it be?) you can't expect a huge company to openly condone anything based on random approaches from common people.
If you get any response at all, it would be distancing themselves to the concept, as that is always safer than actively taking a stance. In a worst case scenario, that would actually result in them officially speaking against homebrew, but more realistically they would probably just avoid addressing it directly.

If companies start to openly condone anything without employing lawyers to fully research any consequence, they'd probably be afraid that even something like a twitter post saying "people doing NES homebrew is cool!" would open the floodgates for illegit romhacks, etc.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:11 pm 
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If Nintendo were forward thinking, they will promote homebrew.

How hard could it be put a quality nes homebrew on the Switch and charge $9 for a digital download?

I think we will eventually get there, once old console programming becomes more mainstream.

Remember when Nintendo required developers to have an office?

Now they "pushing indies" to fill software droughts.

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