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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:07 am 
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Location: Fukuoka, Japan
I guess it depends what you do on linux and what kind of expectation you have. I use it everyday at work for a desktop and it does the job for a developer. The kind of app I will use will be Firefox, Chrome, Skype, git (command line), visual studio code, Intellij, Gimp, Libre Office (I'm not a heavy user of office and the company standardized on it so it's enough for my needs), connect to the office network printer etc and I do not have any major problem.

If you want to use it at home then depending on your need it may be an issue. Video drivers are getting better these days but for bluray this is a good question, it may not work. I don't use media anymore on pc so I wouldn't know. 15~20 years ago it was the norm but now I only used a bluray drive to backup data. For game, yes, it would be an issue since windows is the norm for game.

One of the reason that makes me want to give up windows 10 is telemetry, reboot because the OS decided it was "the right time" to do it even though it wasn't, all kind of new process running at inappropriate time that slow down the machine (on a core 2 duo compare to the i5 8th you kind of feel it quite bad when it decide to do it).

For now at home I use windows since it's installed on that old computer and because for games. At work, don't need anymore since I don't do .net like 10 years ago.

So it depends on your needs. Use the tools (os in that case) based on your needs and not for some idealism or whatever: it's just a waste of time to do it that way :)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:44 am 
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Nope genuine question, how does one do all of those things? Can you even do all of them?
Well the main part in why it looks like satire is that some of those things are "why would you even do that", I wouldn't want to do those things even on Windows.

- Office - MS Office became absolutely unusable with the ribbon. Then there was the constant breaking of formats to get you to pay for the latest Office. Libreoffice is just as usable as pre-ribbon MS Office, and it doesn't break its formats.
- Visual Studio - just why? It's a terrible environment, though that's mainly my opinion
- no easy GUI programming - I find FLTK very easy, and there's plenty of options like Tk. Are you comparing to Visual Basic? Qt and Gtk+ are indeed more complex, even with Qt Creator or Glade.
- c64/nes/snes tools, most of those are not very complex. It wouldn't take you long to write your own alternatives for the ones that require Windows
- WinAmp, there's something like a dozen music players that replicate its look, starting from XMMS
- image editors, many artists prefer Krita to the proprietary options you listed. Gimp's UI is indeed bad if you prefer PS-style
- slack client, why would you even use that? It's one of the Electron crapshoots, essentially running an embedded Chrome, taking hundreds of megs and tons of cpu. Just run slack in a browser
- Github desktop, again why.

Linux was the first OS to be able to burn blurays, but of course I'm speaking data, not movies. On GPU drivers, if you look at the latest benchmarks on Phoronix, AMD's open drivers have been beating their closed drivers on performance since about a year ago. Not to even talk about stability.

edit: Just like tepples, I've completed several NES titles, and I haven't really been hindered by a lack of tools. I've also completed many Genesis titles and one SNES title, same applies for them. You would be correct about the music though, Famitracker and some similar composing tools for the other consoles do not run natively; but since I can't compose anyway, it doesn't matter for me.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:16 am 
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Location: NE Indiana, USA (NTSC)
Provided your X11/Linux box is x86 or x86-64 (not an ARM device like a Pinebook or Raspberry Pi), FamiTracker works near-flawlessly in Wine 1.8 or later once you crank the buffer length up to 80 ms or so.

Working versions: jsr FamiTracker 0.4.6; 0CC-FamiTracker 0.3.15.1 and later; j0CC-FamiTracker


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:52 am 
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I have a few laptops running various versions of windows and I like windows 7 the best. I know it inside and out and it doesn't frustrate me.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:20 pm 
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Location: Seattle
calima wrote:
- no easy GUI programming - I find FLTK very easy, and there's plenty of options like Tk. Are you comparing to Visual Basic? Qt and Gtk+ are indeed more complex, even with Qt Creator or Glade.


Ozy might like Lazarus, an open source implementation of Delphi, which was like Visual Basic except Good 8-)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:24 am 
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Libre office, it came installed on my mums laptop and I have to help her with things like. I changed the size of some text in a table, and it looks fine on the screen, but is the same size it was when I print it. To which she sends it to me, I make the change in Office, send it back and she prints it fine. It probably does everything, but doing everything and doing everything in a simple and fast manor is also important. Re Ribbon interface, I'm with you on it, that it was prompted me to install Open Office in the first place. The "good" thing about the ribbon interface is ALT still brings up the menu, and the underscored letters are still there so you can just use ALT + key, key key etc to select everything as per Word 95.

GIMP vs PSP - to be fair probably about par. Although my gut says the Vector support, animation via Animation Shop and the IFF/ILBM support is better on PSP. Also PSP makes a single window that holds everything not the million little windows all over the place with no container like GIMP. TBF I mostly on use GIMP on the mac, which is probably at it worst.

Upon looking up NES tools on ROMHacking.net I will concede "nothing lost there". On the C64 side I would say it seems to be about 33% work on WINE, the amount seems to be dropping as us Window devs are moving more and more to Win8+/Win10+ dev solutions, the "if it works on XP it works on WINE" is starting to fall off. Although after a while it seems somebody does work out a magic combo to get X mostly working. Or WINE gets an update and then App X can be now run etc.

Github desktop - then why don't they mention it on their site, seeing as they are the Linux fans of Linux fans.. I guess its an "unofficial" "port" of a JS app ;) Good to know though, thanks.
Why Github Desktop? because it is a horrible piece of crap, but it a less horrible piece of crap than the command line, and as much as source-tree looks good its Atlassian and GIT is painful enough already. GIT Kracken looked really good, but it didn't support my "window manager" not sure on the right term, so I couldn't get it to open. Shared directory to windows and Push/Pull from Windows was just far less hassle.

As for dev I find it far easier to be able to use the same tools the Artists use, so when I need to modify something I can them give them back a modified Charpad 2.x file or Spritepad or Pixcen bitmap etc Especially once we get to the point that we need the extra meta data and things to be in the exact right spot. GoatTracker likewise. Making my own custom tool is fine, but everybody in the team needs to use it, which means it needs a windows version as well as anything else.

Visual Studio is the best code and development tool on the planet. People say its takes 5 mins to load, and to be fair it does. However I open it once, and then 2 edit and continues later I'm ahead. Also nobody should be using Visual Basic(or Delphi for that matter) in this day and age. Not even if you are one of those holdouts who use VB6 rather than VB.net as VB.net is akin to VB as FRED.net is. C# + XAML, is insanely fast to cut code in. The Auto binding is Voodoo, Edit and Continue makes the GUI tweaks happen in rapid fire. The you have the static analyzer to catch bugs. Itellisense, and the refactoring tools always make life smooth, oh and switch on a string is Ambrosia.

FLTK, can you drag in a button, double click it and then write the OnClick code? Can you make a class with member with a name, then tell the control to data bind to that member in the class. Then in your code assign the data binding to an instance and have all the controls on the GUI update their contents of the bound members of said instance, and then when you modify the controls have the instance updated without writing a single line of code to do so? When a button doesn't quite work correctly, can you pause the code, modify the code, run again and test the new code right where you left off? If an exception fires, can you fix the code where it broke, and have it wind back to before the exception fired to allow you to continue and test to see if your changes now handle it correctly?

Slack Client, because I already have 3 windows ( 2 firefox, 1 Edge) and having conversations on the web browser, while trying to look at and reference the other tabs is really inefficient. Especially if I need to reference some other tabs at the same time. Its bad enough that app is made my mac-flunkies who use SDI rather than MDI so I can't have a window and task bar entry per group. Sadly the "new" skype also follows this trend...

You worry about Telemetry in Windows yet you run Chrome?

Better drivers than AMD, for AMD... I will believe that, I don't even need to see the benchmarks ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:37 am 
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Like I mentioned, you use the os based on your needs. If your company works entirely with windows it's kind of hard to impose another OS unless some apps are multiplaform. In my environment you use the machine you wants with the OS you want so it is based on your need, as long you can work with the rest of the team, which is mostly with linux based server, docker, git, angular, java etc. So linux as no impact per-se. I had no problem on a mac and some people are on windows too. It depends on your needs.

Visual studio, I liked it until the 2008 version but now it's getting quite heavy for my core 2 duo so I only use 2017 when really necessary. I do not make .net code anymore so I rarely touch it. Once I can update my machine it may be worth it to try it again. Testing compile for c++ code with wxWidget is, well, sllllooowwwww ^^;;;

Regarding chrome, I don't use it to browse but exclusively for debugging angular code since there is a plugin with visual studio code. Except for that I'm not using it anymore.

These days I use all 3 os almost once per day so I'm not bound to one, it depends to what I do and when. I like that. But I use less and less windows compared to 10 years ago. I prefer Win7 and before era of windows. UI wise, win2000 is my favorite, clear and simple ui.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:50 am 
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Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
If your livelihood depends on graphics tools, there’s an equation you have to balance. Inkscape? A complete crashfest nighmare last time i tried it. GiMP? Usable, but you’re limited in what you can do and my workflow is worse. Those two situations are effectively $/hour dumps, since i get payed per completed contract, not per hour. Then you have to balance if you use adobe CC so much that it is worth the subscriptions. If you just need photoshop you can still buy and forever own Photoshop CS which is about as good. Few feature changes justify subscribing to *just* Photoshop CC. You want to make use of most of the suite.

I also use DAW:s from time to time, but rarely professionally. I think that’s another field where linux is lacking.

On the other hand, i switched to OpenOffice when MSOffice introduced the ribbon. It has a bunch of inconveniences of its own, but the ribbon was a terrible downgrade and now you have to subscribe to it.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:35 am 
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FLTK, can you drag in a button, double click it and then write the OnClick code?
Yes, you can do exactly this. The data binding magic or restart-from-this-point-with-a-new-binary magic do not exist though.

I don't run Chrome, I run a browser I wrote myself ;) Surely both FF and Edge have the option to open in a new window instead of a new tab?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:07 am 
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Oziphantom wrote:
Also PSP makes a single window that holds everything not the million little windows all over the place with no container like GIMP.

In GIMP, open Windows > Single Window Mode
(It is turned on by default in new installs of 2.10 and later.)

Oziphantom wrote:
Visual Studio is the best code and development tool on the planet.

Have you tried Visual Studio Code, as opposed to "regular" Visual Studio? I concede it's probably missing the "edit, rewind, and continue" stuff.

Oziphantom wrote:
Slack Client, because I already have 3 windows ( 2 firefox, 1 Edge) and having conversations on the web browser, while trying to look at and reference the other tabs is really inefficient.

I'm with calima about this: Why can't you make a new window in the web browser, for a total of 3 in Firefox (one of them being Slack) and 1 Edge? Is it just that it doesn't appear distinct enough in the system taskbar?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:46 am 
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On linux, I have 2 slack clients opened in different tab in the first browser and the tabs are pinned so they always stay at the same place. I never make mistake with it. And I have the proper widget for alert so when someone sends a message, I now right away about it even though I'm on a different virtual desktop.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:48 am 
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tepples wrote:
Oziphantom wrote:
Visual Studio is the best code and development tool on the planet.

Have you tried Visual Studio Code, as opposed to "regular" Visual Studio? I concede it's probably missing the "edit, rewind, and continue" stuff.


The only thing Visual Studio Code and Visual Studio have in common is the name and the company behind them. One is a source code editor (more akin to Notepad++ or Atom), the other is a full-featured IDE. Visual Studio Code wouldn't be a useful replacement for Visual Studio unless you use almost none of the features that make Visual Studio interesting.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:08 am 
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VSCode is not a replacement for visual studio but a nice code editor with many interesting plug-in these days. I'm now using it to edit my nes code on windows, mac and linux. Before I was using notepad++ and had nothing for other platform but vscode with it's quite good intellisense is very useful and I can manage files a lot better.

I'm usually against editor made with electron since they ends up bloated but this one became so good that I have no choice to let this one pass.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:11 pm 
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The main problem with GIMP for me is the lack of non-destructive editing (i.e. smart layers, filters and effects). It's OK for quick edits, but I can't live without the smart/dynamic stuff when working on something I'll have to modify at a later time. Saving backup layers and creating scripts/macros is NOT a good enough alternative.

And the main problem I have with Inkscape is the lack of a CMYK mode. The few times I tried to send stuff made in Inkscape for printing, the print guys had to contact me because the colors weren't right and I had to resource to hacks in order to fix it (e.g. change color by color manually in other problem, which sometimes would screw up other things in the file).


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:46 pm 
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tokumaru wrote:
The main problem with GIMP for me is the lack of non-destructive editing (i.e. smart layers, filters and effects).

Adjustment layers have been in Photoshop for decades, but GIMP fanboys on Slashdot seem to be unaware of them, and I have to explain what they are in full every time I mention them. Krita has adjustment layers, but then Krita doesn't do indexed mode.


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