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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:48 pm 
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I pay in cash when I buy stuff at the store.

Cashless would be many problem, whether they exclude you due to purpose or by accidently, or surveillance.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:11 am 
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Another problem when paying electronically is that you loose track on how much money you spend easily. Paying with cash you get a feeling how much you spend from all your ATM withdrawals, but when paying with cards I have no idea how much I have left. Therefore I pay only with cards when I'm low on cash.

The biggest advantage with the cashless society is that the line to the ATM has become a lot shorter.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:58 am 
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The possibility of the financial industry deplatforming buyers and sellers has been anticipated since the first century AD. In The Bible, Revelation 13:16-18 tells a story about having no way to buy or sell goods without taking the mark of the beast. Google Search for cashless 666 returns numerous conspiracy theories about the connection between expectation of cashless payment and the rise to power of enemies of all that is loving and good.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:40 am 
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So long story short, the rise of the cashless society means the end of the world draws near? I knew it!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:59 am 
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Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Pokun wrote:
And when people try to keep pressuring me into installing bloatware like "Swish" I get irritated, I see no advantage in that over cards, it just slows down my phone.
Tjena mors!

For me, Swish actually solves the problem of wanting to lend or give money to someone when there's no cash at hand. A typical scenario for me would be "swishing" my GF when she's paid for a big haul of food at the supermarket. I also use it a lot for Tradera (sweden's take on ebay for the non-swedes). Makes compulsive retro game hunting a lot easier! ;)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:11 am 
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Tjena mors!

People borrowing money from me will normally get it in cash. I don't borrow from other people if I can help it, but if I really have to it might be a problem if they don't have cash. They might have to pay the whole sum for me.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:04 am 
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A cashless society will likely be a very tough adjustment for people who are in difficult financial situations. When everything is cashless, everything is tracked, and you cannot hide. People in financial predicaments count on being able to hide, at least a little. In the US, if a creditor has a judgement against you for an unpaid debt, your entire bank account can be sucked down to $0 by that creditor (assuming your balance doesn't exceed what you owe). The law in most states also allows creditors to directly garnish your paycheck before it gets to you, but only up to 25% of it. Most people in this situation avoid depositing their paycheck into a bank account to keep what they can. In a cashless society, your check would need to go somewhere; probably into an account. While it's true that you should honor your word and repay your debt, people need to be able to physically survive. If you have $0 in the bank, you can't buy food. And if you have creditors after you, your credit is shot, so you can't borrow money to buy food. There are millions of people in situations like this, and they count on cash to survive.

Also, a cashless society would likely end up adopting some sort of cryptocurrency, which would involve the use of smart contracts. In today's society, when you agree to terms such as repaying a loan or paying rent for an apartment, you are signing a paper contract where you pinky-swear that you will pay on time. Of course, this gives you room to break your promise. Smart contracts are designed to prevent that from happening, and enforce the terms of the contract using code. Going cashless, companies would surely opt for the use of smart contracts to enforce their terms. Essentially, everything would be on automatic payments. If rent is due on the 1st of the month, you will automatically be charged for your rent on that day. If that transaction fails, the terms of the contract say "if you don't pay, you'll be locked out of your apartment", so a smart contract would run code could in a split second that renders your apartment key useless (assuming a "smart" electronic lock of some sort is installed). Granted, the apartment management company could choose more lenient terms, but they will choose to be as strict as is legally possible.

My personal opinion is that there are a lot of loopholes in our legal systems (including the tax code) that need to be figured out before everything switches to smart contracts and cryptocurrency. Because I'm a gambler, if I followed the tax code exactly like I'm supposed to, every time I win a quarter on a slot machine, I would be required to add that to my "winnings" for the year, and add that to my adjusted gross income (AGI). You can sit at a slot machine for hours with all the times it gives you a quarter back, and only end up spending like $20 in the end. Technically, I could win and lose a quarter tens of thousands of times throughout the year, but I'm expected to document the winnings (and just the winnings, not the offsetting loss) and add it to my adjusted gross income. While I can deduct my losses on another line and reduce the amount I'm taxed on, eligibility for tax credits and student loans is based on your adjusted gross income, before losses are deducted. This means I could have won and lost a quarter a million times, and I would be required to add $250,000 to my AGI, basically eliminating my eligibility for student aid. Thankfully, these transactions are all handled with cash today, so I can "forget" to tell the government about these micro wins. In fact, nobody reports these micro wins because the concept is ridiculous. In a cashless society, this would be reported automatically via smart contract, and I would automatically be screwed.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:23 pm 
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Celius wrote:
Because I'm a gambler

Wow this is awful Celius ! This is basically, mathematically speaking throwing your money out of the window. You're a good guy, you should stop gampling ASAP.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:20 pm 
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Bregalad wrote:
Wow this is awful Celius ! This is basically, mathematically speaking throwing your money out of the window. You're a good guy, you should stop gampling ASAP.


LOL, I appreciate your concern. We all have our vices. Gambling is my vice, rather than drinking or smoking. I am pretty good at math, so I understand that the house has the edge and that you lose money in the long run (and often in the short run). Have a reasonable budget, go for entertainment (you can meet people, socialize, and make friends at the casino; some of my closest friends I've met at the casino). Every now and then, you'll recoup some losses, and even recoup enough to purchase something you would never have saved money for. Go to the bar, you can do all the same stuff, but you never get your money back, and slowly contribute to declining health. Many don't understand how gambling could be entertaining, but that's OK. I don't understand how drinking is entertaining. To me, it's stupid, and it's a waste of money. And that's also OK.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:30 am 
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Celius wrote:
We all have our vices. Gambling is my vice, rather than drinking or smoking.

Well I don't know but I find it ridiculous to think that if you weren't gambing you'd be automatically be drinking, smoking or something else. This is just not true. And there's plenty of people who are gambling, drinking and smoking. And we have to feed those idiots with our taxes.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:59 am 
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Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Celius wrote:
Because I'm a gambler, if I followed the tax code exactly like I'm supposed to, every time I win a quarter on a slot machine, I would be required to add that to my "winnings" for the year, and add that to my adjusted gross income (AGI). You can sit at a slot machine for hours with all the times it gives you a quarter back, and only end up spending like $20 in the end. Technically, I could win and lose a quarter tens of thousands of times throughout the year, but I'm expected to document the winnings (and just the winnings, not the offsetting loss) and add it to my adjusted gross income.

That sounds very strange. Are you sure you wouldn't just have to report the total sum of your wins, as in what you actually walk away with? I'm a swede, so I don't know how it works over there in the US, but that sounds really strange. Are the rules for gambling investments different from stocks or is it the same there?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:18 am 
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I know one person who is sufficiently good with statistics that he knows how to 1- identify which games have an expected positive return and 2- how to adjust playing to minimize the element of chance. As I understand it, he gets a special tax form for gambling winnings, and has to pay capital gains on those winnings, instead of treating it as ordinary income.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:36 am 
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Location: Berlin, Germany
Celius wrote:
When everything is cashless, everything is tracked, and you cannot hide.

I would imagine that would be the end of all sex shops.

Bregalad wrote:
Celius wrote:
Because I'm a gambler

Wow this is awful Celius ! This is basically, mathematically speaking throwing your money out of the window. You're a good guy, you should stop gampling ASAP.

This.

lidnariq wrote:
I know one person who is sufficiently good with statistics that he knows how to 1- identify which games have an expected positive return and 2- how to adjust playing to minimize the element of chance. As I understand it, he gets a special tax form for gambling winnings, and has to pay capital gains on those winnings, instead of treating it as ordinary income.

Really? Which ones? What casino gives the player the edge?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:45 am 
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WedNESday wrote:
Celius wrote:
When everything is cashless, everything is tracked, and you cannot hide.

I would imagine that would be the end of all sex shops.

Not everyone is ashamed of buying stuff at sex shops. Lots of people I know are pretty open about items acquired in sex shops.

Quote:
Bregalad wrote:
You're a good guy, you should stop gampling ASAP.

This.

Quote:
Really? Which ones? What casino gives the player the edge?

Wait... So you're against gambling, unless your chances are better than average?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:49 am 
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Bregalad wrote:
Well I don't know but I find it ridiculous to think that if you weren't gambing you'd be automatically be drinking, smoking or something else. This is just not true. And there's plenty of people who are gambling, drinking and smoking. And we have to feed those idiots with our taxes.

True, you do not have to do any of those things, or you could do all of those things. Pretty much everyone I know does at least one of those things (mainly, drinking). Most people have a vice, or bad habit, that another would consider a waste of money. I certainly don't condone people spending government money on any of those things. I've seen a lot of people who are drunk, smoking, and gambling, literally talking about how they are spending their welfare check (government assistance in the US) at the casino. It truly irritates me, because I know people who are struggling financially who don't smoke/drink/gamble, and they don't qualify for that assistance. I support myself and am in a higher tax bracket, so I don't really feel guilty about gambling a couple times a month for a little bit. Are there smarter things to do with my money? 100%, guaranteed, yes, certainly.
pwnskar wrote:
That sounds very strange. Are you sure you wouldn't just have to report the total sum of your wins, as in what you actually walk away with? I'm a swede, so I don't know how it works over there in the US, but that sounds really strange.

It would make sense that you would just need to report your net gambling income as one item, but it's not the case. In the US, you calculate something called adjusted gross income which includes all your winnings, then you subtract out deductions which can include gambling losses, which results in your taxable income. It could look like this:

AGI:
$50,000 in regular income
+ $100,000 in winnings (this could be this high from winning 25 cents thousands of times)
= $150,000

Deductions:
-$100,000 in losses (immediately after you win 25 cents, you spend it back because who cares)

Taxable Income:
$150,000 (AGI)
- $100,000 (Deductions)
= $50,000 (Taxable Income)

If you won 25 cents and lost 25 cents 400,000 times in a row, you would have $0 in net winnings or losses, but you would report it as shown above, even though at no point did you ever have an extra $100,000. When you go to apply for a school loan, you'll have to tell them your AGI was $150,000, and they'll wonder how you "blew through all that money". It's a terrible system, so people work around it by not reporting micro wins (like when you win 25 cents, don't report it, even though you're supposed to).

pwnskar wrote:
Are the rules for gambling investments different from stocks or is it the same there?

Gambling is not really an investment, because you don't own anything in exchange for your bet. Thus, it is not treated as an investment in terms of taxes.
lidnariq wrote:
I know one person who is sufficiently good with statistics that he knows how to 1- identify which games have an expected positive return and 2- how to adjust playing to minimize the element of chance.

It is indeed possible to do this, but it's very difficult, requires a huge bankroll, a huge amount of patience, and attention to detail. Many people play video poker with a "perfect strategy" and actually do make a profit, but you really have to know what you're doing. There are instances where the best choice of what to hold is not obvious, and where one choice has a super tiny advantage over the other. If you make the wrong choice, you can really set yourself back without even realizing it.
lidnariq wrote:
As I understand it, he gets a special tax form for gambling winnings, and has to pay capital gains on those winnings, instead of treating it as ordinary income.

From my experience, if you win over $1200 in a single play/win, you get a W-2 for that amount, and you report it as "additional income". It doesn't get taxed differently than regular income. You're also supposed to report gambling winnings that don't have a W-2 associated with them, but like I said, no one does. You just report the winnings with a W-2 associated, because you know that the IRS knows about those.
WedNESday wrote:
Really? Which ones? What casino gives the player the edge?

It's not a casino that gives the player the edge, it's specific games, which are pretty hard to find these days. Certain variations of video poker yield a positive ROI when played with the perfect strategy, but you pretty much have to be a mastermind to actually execute that strategy. Most people who gamble are indeed idiots, and the house makes money on their garbage "strategies", while losing a little to the masterminds.
tokumaru wrote:
Wait... So you're against gambling, unless your chances are better than average?

LOL, I have a friend who says, "gambling is only a problem when you're not winning."


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