It is currently Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:23 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:14 am 
Offline
Formerly Espozo
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:35 pm
Posts: 3501
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Having largely neglected my Genesis for years, I've recently gotten into it after noticing how much, perhaps unfairly, less popular it is in comparison to the SNES or the NES; I recently saw Sonic 2 for $7 at the same used game store that I found Super Mario World for $24(!), so I went and looked at what well-renowned Genesis games there are that I didn't own and bought Comix Zone for $20 on eBay, despite not knowing much at all about it then.

Having played through the entire game now, I can say it has some of the best sounding instruments and quite possibly clearest (and longest) pcm samples in a Genesis game, real-time variable width text generation, and although I haven't looked at it in an emulator, probably the best VRAM utilization for either the Genesis or the SNES.

It's not uncommon you run into situations where you have the player, two enemies, the giant hand, the picture of Alissa, the HUD, two text bubbles, and paper particles all filling the screen and using unique tile data. Sprites on the Genesis can reside anywhere in VRAM, but with all of the unique background tiles (that are also probably loaded as the page progresses) there really isn't much room for them. The game does throw up on itself occasionally (the forth panel of episode 2 almost always causes the game to display garbage everywhere) and while not quite the same issue, there's plenty of sprite dropout (and slowdown) caused by all of the paper particles, but overall, the game does a admirable job managing everything.

Given how much it stands out from everything else on the hardware, it's pretty sad that this game's technical prowess is often overlooked. I guess it's not as easy to see for most (non-computer) people, who often only look at things like collision detection and fast movement.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:28 pm
Posts: 4151
Location: A world gone mad
Yup, Genesis/MD is one of the neglected systems of present-day emulation and general focus (I think the latter is a result of the former); same goes for its 32X and SegaD expansion modules (more on that in a moment). It's had a series of emulators over the past 20-25 years but very few of them are even viable. It's sad when you consider the NES and SNES are bizarrely (borderline psychotically) "the" defining systems for "retro systems" in people's eyes today -- and this is further verified by the existence of the Nintendont sub-community on Twitch.

That said: I don't particularly find it to have lots of good games, or at least ones that drew my attention to it (I'm very fond of 2 specific games, but the rest are kinda like "oh, yeah, okay"; there are some run-and-gun titles like Gunstar Heroes and Sunset Riders that are good quality, but they feel very arcade-y (keep reading)). In this respect, IMO, it's similar to the SNES: large quantity of games but only some are memorable/worthwhile. For example, as I expressed recently on Discord, Sonic the Hedgehog is really pretty bland after you've played it once or twice, but it kept getting sequels that became worse due to creeping featurism. It's certainly the "Super Mario World of the Genesis/MD" though, as Sonic was essentially the mascot.

It "lost" the 16-bit attention wars of the early 90s due in part to Nintendo having *super* aggressive marketing and really pushing their brand a lot harder; this was further compounded by Nintendo (with the SNES, similar to the NES) having a more "soft" touch to their games, i.e. more family-friendly (no blood/gore/etc.), while the Genesis/MD was significantly less so (felt more adult) (do not forget that the majority of North America, just like now, tends to be Christian. Parents look out for that sort of thing) But expansions like the 32X felt more like a marketing gimmick than expansions. The Sega CD on the other hand felt like a sort of response to the TurboDuo -- CDs were all the rage then, especially for things like Redbook streaming audio during gameplay (see; Ys 1&2) -- and still remains one of the most neglected emulator features today.

Overall the Genesis/MD feels like a mix of two things: 1) deep Sega design (from what technical documents I've read when compared to *other* Sega systems like the Master System, as well as some of their arcades), and 2) a good candidate for porting arcade games (from what I do understand of its technical details, it has very arcade-like implementation). It didn't have a plethora of good documentation available during the emulation peak of the late 90s, which is why it was often overlooked.

I think it's cool when people do dev or RE or demos on it, simply because it's been so neglected over the years. I can't speak for others, but I never got into it because the console didn't particularly interest me game-wise when I was younger, and the fact that I never bothered to learn 68K. On the flip side, there are other consoles that have been equally neglected (in comparison), ones like the TG16/PCE and SMS -- though I will admit I bought MagicEngine back in the day and it was worth every penny. If you ever get around to trying it and like RPGs, give Neutopia and Neutopia 2 a try.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:12 am 
Offline
Formerly Espozo
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:35 pm
Posts: 3501
Location: Richmond, Virginia
koitsu wrote:
It's sad when you consider the NES and SNES are bizarrely (borderline psychotically) "the" defining systems for "retro systems" in people's eyes today

I completely agree; people talk about how expensive "retro" games are, but you can find most of the worthwhile games on Genesis, SMS, PS1, and even the N64 for under $15. The situation is reversed for the NES and especially the SNES.

As for good (exclusive) games for the system (based on my opinion and others, as I don't own half of these games and listed in no particular order), there's:

Comix Zone (might as well list that right away)
The Sonic games (although I don't care for Sonic 1, tbh)
The SoR games
The Shinobi games
Gunstar Heroes
Alien Soldier
Dynamite Headdy
Aladdin (technically not exclusive because of PC, but whatever)
Thunder Force 3 & 4
Musha
Contra Hard Corps
Castlevania Bloodlines
X-Men 2
Panorama Cotton
Rocket Night Adventures
Road Rash games
Echo the Dolphin 1 & 2
Double Dragon (arcade port, but mostly better)
Battle Mania 1 & 2 (although 2 is Japan only and stupid expensive)
Eternal Champions
Beyond Oasis
Ristar

And I'm sure several others I forgot. This could very well be bigger than the list of good SNES games, because while it has some amazing games, I agree that the list is rather short compared to the NES and others. The baseline for playability of random games just feels rather low in comparison to other systems.

As for the design of the system, it's far more sensible and, quite frankly, better designed than SNES. It's amazing how much less complicated the Genesis is, while still being able to give the SNES a run for its money; really the only problem with the system is its pitiful color palette. It's funny how much better that old PSG and bargain Yamaha chip usually sounded than the (probably overpriced, knowing Sony) proprietary sound system in the SNES.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:10 am
Posts: 696
Location: Estonia, Rapla city (50 and 60Hz compatible :P)
That list has several very expensive games in it. Panorama Cotton and few others are triple digit games unless you're getting some repro.

_________________
http://www.tmeeco.eu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:28 pm
Posts: 4151
Location: A world gone mad
Funny enough, the 2 games I love on the Genesis/MD are not in that list. I had forgotten about Echo the Dolphin though -- that is a good game.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 12:16 pm
Posts: 297
I'm a big fan of all video game consoles, Genesis included.

I remember back in the early 90's, I had an SNES and all of my friends had an SNES, but there was one kid who had a Genesis and he lived right next to me. Together we had the best of both worlds, he would come over and play Mario Kart, Street Fighter and Mario Paint and then I would come over and play Sonic 2, Road Rash and TMNT Hyper Stone.

I ended up getting an Genesis maybe around right before high school from my mother as an Easter present. Little did I know that years and years later I still have it and play it. The best thing about consoles is their longevity and play-ability. While many things become "obsolete" like old computers and printers and scanners, video games, on the other hand just don't go away and you can have fun with them years and years after their heyday.

From what I've read, the processor speed is faster than the SNES, but like what has been said, the games kind of look a little lackluster because of the limited colors that the console could display. Despite this, the system does have some excellent games. The sound is very unique and if done right can produce wonderful music. I also love the 3 button controller. The 6 button one doesn't feel good in my hands but the 3 button one does. I also love how I can play my Atari 2600 -7800 games using the Genesis controller.

I never owned a 32X or a Sega CD ever. I actually don't understand why Sega did this in the first place. Hardware is nothing without software and hardware doesn't sell unless you have a "kill app", in other words, some badass game. Even if I did own a Genesis back when it was being supported, just think of what it was like to ask your parents for games/add ons. For example:

Kid Me: Mom, can I get a Sega Genesis?
Mom: Sure for your birthday dear.
Kid Me: Mom, can I get a 32X with Knuckles Chaotix?
Mom: Okay, you want Knuckles Chaotix? I can get that for you.
Kid Me: But you need the 32X to run it also.
Mom: So the game doesn't run on the console I bought you?
Kid Me: Yeah, you need to also get the 32X add on to play it.
Mom: Sorry, we're not getting it then.

This is literally the reason why most kids didn't have the Sega CD or 32X. It was just "too much" to ask for and parents couldn't rationalize why they had to buy more and more accessories for the console that they already bought.

I remember parents getting mad at Nintendo's SNES because it wasn't backwards compatible with the NES, in other words you couldn't play your NES games on your SNES. Parents thought that the games that they were buying was some sort of investment rather than "out with the old, in with the new" mentality.

But one of the coolest things about old consoles is that people are still making new games for them. So if you didn't think that the Genesis was all that cool back in the day, then check out some of the newer games made for the system. Like Pier Solar or Xeno Crisis or Tangle Wood. And again if you were ever disappointed in a consoles library of games or felt that the system was underrated and neglected then you can always sit down and create a new badass game for that console!

And the other cool thing is that these old consoles are not done yet! There will be people still years into the future coding brand new experiences for the systems. So really the consoles never die and that's one thing about video games that fascinates me, 500 years from now a person can fire up an emulator and play some Genesis games and the games play exactly how they did back in the 90's. The is possible because games are just information and this is why video games are not some sort of "fad", but rather they are FOREVER!

But I will admit that while I have both an SNES and Genesis and flashcarts for both, I still play my SNES more and just haven't really gotten into the full library of the Genesis yet. But the Genesis is a great system and with 1,000+ games for it, there is bound to be something in there for just about anyone to enjoy.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:16 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:15 am
Posts: 520
Comix Zone was from 1995 and by that time the Sega Saturn was already released. The programming's overlooked because it didn't stand out compared to newer systems.

The game had excellent production values though. Some of the best art ever!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:17 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:15 am
Posts: 520
Since this is a Genesis thread I should mention the best games are Shining Force, Gain Ground, and Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:06 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:03 am
Posts: 733
I fell most of the retro scene isn't actually made up of people that were alive when the consoles where
"big", or were very young. Rather that us who lived through it.

So Nintendo still makes top tier games, and the brands still live and they are still game of the year stuff. So kids will go I wonder what the older games are like, then go back and play Links Awakening, Super Mario world, Super Metroid, Mario Tennis, Fire Emblem, Kirby, Wario land... et al and go "Hey these are still great". Also Nintendo aimed at the said younger generation while Sega aimed at the older generation.

Sega don't make anything of note any more and haven't for a long time. Sonic was not a good game, the first level was top tier that is why they put it in every single one, but as a whole its doesn't hold up, and its transition into 3D has been mess upon mess upon mess. The Wonderboys have had a comeback but play the originals and oh dear.. Alex Kid, Who? Shinobi who? Sega Rally, oh yeah that was on the PS2?? It was alright I guess.. tries to think of another MD game that would appeal to the general public.. Streets of Rage was ace.. Oh no new ones of them... OUTRUN yeah.. oh they don't have the license any more and you can't buy them... er...

Sega just don't have the presence to sustain their past, you had to be a person who sadly got the MD back in the day to appreciate it, there is nothing to funnel people back into the MD or MS or the Saturn or the Dreamcast.. Anything big would have been on the Nintendo console, or Playstion so the machine has to live on its exclusives, of which there are none any more. Most people will tell you Tomb Raider is a Playstation game, but it actually a Saturn game, just nobody cared. So while it might have a better port of this and that, I don't feel there is enough to push people to look at them.

The Sega CD is a powerful piece of kit, that was wasted, I like it, in that I would be cheap to make and distribute games for, the new FPGA cart probably improves the market but its really expensive..

Comix Zone is Impressive, but I don't think its Star Fox, Yoshi's Island, Virtua Racing or Star Ocean impressive.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:31 pm
Posts: 1060
Erockbrox wrote:
From what I've read, the processor speed is faster than the SNES

The Mega Drive CPU (a 68000) runs at 7.67 MHz, compared to 3.58 (or 2.68 for cycles that touch slow memory) for the 65816 core in the SNES. Plus the 68000's data bus is twice as wide.

But the 68000 takes a lot more cycles to do things than the 65816, and the bus is only accessed at most once every 4 cycles instead of just about every cycle, meaning the actual bus bandwidth is very similar. However, the architectures are very different, with the 68000 relying much more heavily on internal registers and having more elaborate, less granular instructions. So the net result is (if I'm not mistaken) that the Mega Drive CPU is generally accepted to be, on average, modestly more powerful than the SNES CPU when performing tasks typical of 16-bit video games, but nowhere near the two and a half times as powerful implied by the clock speed difference. Due to the massive architectural differences between the two chips, it's hard to compare in the abstract or even with selected tasks; there have been fights over this.

The system architectures also contribute to the question. For instance, the SNES sprite system is less flexible and more difficult to use, and the Mega Drive's graphics format is more suited to software rendering. So even the best comparisons in the commercial library are apples-to-oranges to start with, if what you're interested in is the CPU. One must also consider the fact that the 68000 was a very popular CPU in arcades and computers, while the 65816 pretty much only showed up in the Apple IIgs and in an upgrade kit for the Commodore 64 that no one bought. And by all accounts (even those of experienced 65xx coders), programming the 68000 in assembly is a much more pleasant experience than doing the same with the 65816.

...

All in all, it's almost weird how close the two consoles ended up in terms of capabilities. And it's not because the designs are similar - quite often it turns out to be because one console or the other did something twice as fast but was bottlenecked to half the data width or something like that. The designs are very different, but they often end up doing basically the same thing. Of course the SNES has more features and is arguably more advanced when taken as a whole, but if you look at the feature set of Mode 2 as compared with the Mega Drive's VDP, or look at the resolution-normalized DMA bandwidth per VBlank, the similarity is striking.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:15 pm
Posts: 4
koitsu wrote:
Yup, Genesis/MD is one of the neglected systems of present-day emulation and general focus (I think the latter is a result of the former); same goes for its 32X and SegaD expansion modules (more on that in a moment). It's had a series of emulators over the past 20-25 years but very few of them are even viable. It's sad when you consider the NES and SNES are bizarrely (borderline psychotically) "the" defining systems for "retro systems" in people's eyes today -- and this is further verified by the existence of the Nintendont sub-community on Twitch.


I wouldn't call the Genesis as something completely neglected by present-day emulation. At least four emulators have popped up during the last years (Genesis Plus GX, Picodrive, Kega Fusion and BlastEm), each one with their own characteristics and focus. Some of them may just focus on playing games alone and others like Kega and BlastEm do have integrated debuggers and other neat features to try out. The Genesis may not have as many "complete" emulators like the NES does but I have seen a lot more interesting projects popping up for homebrew than anything I've seen on the SNES so that's pretty cool in my book.

Oziphantom wrote:
Sega don't make anything of note any more and haven't for a long time. Sonic was not a good game, the first level was top tier that is why they put it in every single one, but as a whole its doesn't hold up, and its transition into 3D has been mess upon mess upon mess. The Wonderboys have had a comeback but play the originals and oh dear.. Alex Kid, Who? Shinobi who? Sega Rally, oh yeah that was on the PS2?? It was alright I guess.. tries to think of another MD game that would appeal to the general public.. Streets of Rage was ace.. Oh no new ones of them... OUTRUN yeah.. oh they don't have the license any more and you can't buy them... er...

Sega just don't have the presence to sustain their past, you had to be a person who sadly got the MD back in the day to appreciate it, there is nothing to funnel people back into the MD or MS or the Saturn or the Dreamcast.. Anything big would have been on the Nintendo console, or Playstion so the machine has to live on its exclusives, of which there are none any more. Most people will tell you Tomb Raider is a Playstation game, but it actually a Saturn game, just nobody cared. So while it might have a better port of this and that, I don't feel there is enough to push people to look at them.


Comix Zone is Impressive, but I don't think its Star Fox, Yoshi's Island, Virtua Racing or Star Ocean impressive.


I respectfully disagree with your points, and that's because you seem completely wrong in many aspects if you ask me. Most of what you say seems to be pretty subjective so I'll take this as objectively as much as possible to illustrate you, at least doing that favour:

"Sega don't make anything of note any more and haven't for a long time. Sonic was not a good game, the first level was top tier that is why they put it in every single one, but as a whole its doesn't hold up, and its transition into 3D has been mess upon mess upon mess"

"Sonic was not a good game" Huh, you wouldn't be the first person to say that, but Genesis Sonic? that was the first outing of the blue hedgehog, of course it wasn't going to be perfect, but by no means is a bad game. I'll let this video speak for myself in some of the points established here: https://youtube.com/watch?v=hY740NlQLmA

I'll resume it quickly. Sonic was made in an era where there were absolutely no rules on how everything should work or fit as a standard, as a result, developers were trying different things to spice up gameplay or see how they worked. You may think that Green Hill Zone is the only stage worth playing, well, it was the stage that developers continuously focused to polish on, the one that got the most attention because it was the first stage. But later stages provided different feelings, emotions to the player (even the slow-paced ones like Labyrinth and Marble Zone), they were trying to see how to fit the blue hedgehog with different plays. I would say that if Sonic had consisted purely of Green Hill Zone-like stages for the rest, it wouldn't be as memorable, specially considering the time period (and because while Sonic was fast, in reality, it would get this reputation properly by Sonic 2 anyway)

"but as a whole its doesn't hold up, and its transition into 3D has been mess upon mess upon mess"

I already discussed the original game and 2D series, they hold up very well in fact. As for 3D, well, that's another topic to discuss, for some people it has been a hit or a miss. They continued to sold well so even if people call it messy, it still does fairly well, I could talk about Sonic 06 but that was the result of outright mismanagement and trying to do things as fast as possible. It does have some nice music though.

"The Wonderboys have had a comeback but play the originals and oh dear.."

...? There isn't anything in the gameplay that is wrong with Wonderboys, sometimes experimental here and there but for the most part is one of the most solid series in the Sega catalog...?

Alex Kid, Who? Shinobi who?

Alex Kidd (not Kid) was one of the earliest Sega mascots, it mostly shone with the Sega Master System demographic but it was quickly replaced by Sonic, and that's where the focus went. Back then Sega couldn't just focus on all their franchises one by one since they were still smaller and needed to play their cards right, and for the most part, they were an arcade manufacturer. I would say Alex Kidd does holds very well on that platform, as for Shinobi. It was a staple of the late 80's and early 90's, with music by Yuzo Koshiro (at least with Revenge of Shinobi) so is a cool series.

" tries to think of another MD game that would appeal to the general public.. Streets of Rage was ace.. Oh no new ones of them..."

Streets of Rage 4 was announced last year. You're welcome.

"Sega just don't have the presence to sustain their past, you had to be a person who sadly got the MD back in the day to appreciate it, there is nothing to funnel people back into the MD or MS or the Saturn or the Dreamcast.. "

"Sadly" huh? I recall on a poll of the early 90's that many kids and teenagers of the era did not tell their classmates that they had a SNES due to a fear of being bullied or completely ignored in classes, as the Genesis was the cool device of the era. And it did extremely well back then, as for new people. Well, there are plenty of space shooters in there, along with some interesting arcade conversions and the like and Ristar. It has quite the catalogue (much more than what the TG16 did at least) and some hidden gems so ignoring it or calling it "nothing to funnel people back" is just outright wrong, specially considering that the new Genesis Mini has been the top item of "Must buy" preorder list on Amazon Japan, the country in which the Sega Genesis did the worst in terms of sales.

The Saturn...well, that was a trainwreck and lack of communication. It was Sega's attempt at trying to get back the Japanese market and ignore the NA and European one. It does have a few cult games like Panzer Dragoon and Sakura Taisen so is definitely not a bad system, but then again the PS1 did crush everyone in the competition worldwide, including Nintendo so...

Dreamcast was an interesting thing, I like the arcade-y exclusives the console had and it was overall a nice console. It has also seen a stable homebrew community, an OS (NetBSD) and more. But this was the time in which Sony just crushed the competition so it couldn't live for long.

"Comix Zone is Impressive, but I don't think its Star Fox, Yoshi's Island, Virtua Racing or Star Ocean impressive."

Is very easy to be "Impressive" when Star Fox, Yoshi's Island, Virtua Racing and Star Ocean all used additional custom chips embedded into the games to further add 3D graphics, more colors, better processing, etc. to the main console. The reason why Comix Zone is impressive is because it did all that it had with a regular Genesis cartridge with no add-ons. Is easier to say "Look how amazing this game is" on the SNES when yours have an ARM coprocessor that is significantly more powerful than the console itself, is different when all you have to work with is a standard cartridge with none.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:38 pm 
Offline
Formerly Espozo
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:35 pm
Posts: 3501
Location: Richmond, Virginia
@ShiningSun Wow, amazing first comment! Unfortunately, I'm on mobile right now, because I really want to leave a reply.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:31 pm
Posts: 1060
ShiningSun wrote:
Is very easy to be "Impressive" when Star Fox, Yoshi's Island, Virtua Racing and Star Ocean all used additional custom chips embedded into the games to further add 3D graphics, more colors, better processing, etc. to the main console.

You can't add more colours to a SNES with an expansion chip. You're thinking of the 32X.

Comparing Super FX games to a base Mega Drive game is a bit cheesy. But Star Ocean used the S-DD1, which was just a data decompression and memory mapping chip. That's the only thing it did; there were no processing or graphical enhancements at all. Star Ocean would still have been perfectly feasible without the chip, but the ROMs would have cost more - it was 48 Mbits as shipped, and apparently it almost fits in 64 Mbits uncompressed, which was the size of Super Mario 64 (released about a month earlier). A bit of software decompression would have gotten it over the line, and since it was an RPG it probably wouldn't have hurt the gameplay much. Apparently the S-DD1 was cheaper than 16 Mbits of FastROM...

Quote:
Is easier to say "Look how amazing this game is" on the SNES when yours have an ARM coprocessor that is significantly more powerful than the console itself, is different when all you have to work with is a standard cartridge with none.

ARM? Besides Star Ocean, all of those games used the Super FX chip, which was a custom CPU with dedicated rendering features designed by Argonaut (so, an early ARC chip). The famous ARM coprocessor, which was by far the most powerful special chip in the entire SNES library, was only ever used in one very expensive shogi game.

I believe Yoshi's Island used mostly the base SNES, with the Super FX used in-game only for morphing/zooming/rotating enemies and objects. It would have been almost the same game without it, especially with the extra/faster ROM they could have used. Same goes for most SA-1 games, but more so; other than a shogi game or so I'm not aware of any game that looks like it actually needed the "Super Accelerator" - one theory is that it was intended as copy protection.

There were plenty of impressive SNES games that didn't use special chips. Lots of misinformation, though. It seems like some people still think the Donkey Kong Country games used enhancement chips, or that Mode 7 required a special chip to work (no, F-Zero did not use a DSP-1), or that Super Smash T.V. used a coprocessor (it was a bog-standard SlowROM cart). I just watched a playthrough of Comix Zone, and while it's impressive I really don't see it being out of reach for the SNES. On the other hand, I've been sadly delayed in my own development efforts, while Drew I think has spent a lot of time on basic engine infrastructure, so his judgement may be better than mine...


Last edited by 93143 on Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:55 am
Posts: 367
Location: Phoenix, AZ
General Chaos is fun if you have someone to play with.

_________________
. That's just like, your opinion, man .


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:15 pm
Posts: 4
93143 wrote:
ARM? Besides Star Ocean, all of those games used the Super FX chip, which was a custom CPU with dedicated rendering features designed by Argonaut (so, an early ARC chip). The famous ARM coprocessor, which was by far the most powerful special chip in the entire SNES library, was only ever used in one very expensive shogi game.

I believe Yoshi's Island used mostly the base SNES, with the Super FX used in-game only for morphing/zooming/rotating enemies and objects. It would have been almost the same game without it, especially with the extra/faster ROM they could have used. Same goes for most SA-1 games, but more so; other than a shogi game or so I'm not aware of any game that looks like it actually needed the "Super Accelerator" - one theory is that it was intended as copy protection.

There were plenty of impressive SNES games that didn't use special chips. Lots of misinformation, though. It seems like some people still think the Donkey Kong Country games used enhancement chips, or that Mode 7 required a special chip to work (no, F-Zero did not use a DSP-1), or that Super Smash T.V. used a coprocessor (it was a bog-standard SlowROM cart). I just watched a playthrough of Comix Zone, and while it's impressive I really don't see it being out of reach for the SNES. On the other hand, I've been sadly delayed in my own development efforts, while Drew I think has spent a lot of time on basic engine infrastructure, so his judgement may be better than mine...


Oh, hey there! I believe I was going on a bit off a tangent with the more colours but I did wanted to illustrate that pretty much all the games he listed there did used extra hardware chips while Comix Zone did not used any of those. Even if they don't impact significantly how the game performs or looks as an end-result (In some of the games)

Yoshi's Island did used it strategically for the zooming, some effects and the like. I believe what that game carried strongly however was a very good art direction and an unique style that was fit for the game's tone. It looks very impressive indeed due to the style is going for, and still holds up well, but then again, the same I can say of Ristar. Having strong art directions or your game looking beautiful isn't the same as "impressive" when it comes to "Pushing hardware to the limits"

I honestly did not know there was a very expensive Shogi game featuring an ARM coprocessor! that was a first. When I mentioned an ARM coprocessor, I was mostly going off a tangent there, not really expecting that a game back then would have had one (Even modern homebrew doesn't use them that much, the only example I recall is Ricky & Vicky for the Atari 7800, specifically for the sound)

There is some misinformation about Sega Genesis and some of the games as well. Vectorman (or 2) did not used any special chips, like Donkey Kong Country (although the art style of Vectorman really did benefited from the polygon-shaped style) nor Aladdin for the SG.

Comix Zone isn't the most impressive Sega Genesis game for me though, the most notorious one I would say is Battle Mania Daiginjō and Dynamite Headdy. The games that do mostly benefit from special effects or hardware tricks are shooters and there were lots of them for the Genesis: https://youtube.com/watch?v=wvlRCks1Kn8

If I go by "Impressive" in terms of music, is Tallarico's compositions for the Sega Genesis. Like Cool Spot or Earthworm Jim, because he used GEMS, a sound driver that gets a bad rep due to making it too easy for composers of the era and not using anything outside of the preset selection. I personally think it was a genius decision and one that opened up more realm and field for Sega with his console, but oh well


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group