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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:36 am 
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93143 wrote:
Erockbrox wrote:
From what I've read, the processor speed is faster than the SNES

The Mega Drive CPU (a 68000) runs at 7.67 MHz, compared to 3.58 (or 2.68 for cycles that touch slow memory) for the 65816 core in the SNES. Plus the 68000's data bus is twice as wide.


To compares Mhz you need to compare T clocks not Phase clocks. So the 68K on the MD has a T clock of 7.67Mhz, the SNES 65816 has a T clock of 7.16Mhz, which is kinda neither here nor there in difference. So it comes down to the architecture and the problem. Register bound 68K wins, Memory bound the 65816 wins broadly speaking.
ShiningSun wrote:
Oziphantom wrote:
Sega don't make anything of note any more and haven't for a long time. Sonic was not a good game, the first level was top tier that is why they put it in every single one, but as a whole its doesn't hold up, and its transition into 3D has been mess upon mess upon mess. The Wonderboys have had a comeback but play the originals and oh dear.. Alex Kid, Who? Shinobi who? Sega Rally, oh yeah that was on the PS2?? It was alright I guess.. tries to think of another MD game that would appeal to the general public.. Streets of Rage was ace.. Oh no new ones of them... OUTRUN yeah.. oh they don't have the license any more and you can't buy them... er...

Sega just don't have the presence to sustain their past, you had to be a person who sadly got the MD back in the day to appreciate it, there is nothing to funnel people back into the MD or MS or the Saturn or the Dreamcast.. Anything big would have been on the Nintendo console, or Playstion so the machine has to live on its exclusives, of which there are none any more. Most people will tell you Tomb Raider is a Playstation game, but it actually a Saturn game, just nobody cared. So while it might have a better port of this and that, I don't feel there is enough to push people to look at them.


Comix Zone is Impressive, but I don't think its Star Fox, Yoshi's Island, Virtua Racing or Star Ocean impressive.


I respectfully disagree with your points, and that's because you seem completely wrong in many aspects if you ask me. Most of what you say seems to be pretty subjective so I'll take this as objectively as much as possible to illustrate you, at least doing that favour:

"Sega don't make anything of note any more and haven't for a long time. Sonic was not a good game, the first level was top tier that is why they put it in every single one, but as a whole its doesn't hold up, and its transition into 3D has been mess upon mess upon mess"

"Sonic was not a good game" Huh, you wouldn't be the first person to say that, but Genesis Sonic? that was the first outing of the blue hedgehog, of course it wasn't going to be perfect, but by no means is a bad game. I'll let this video speak for myself in some of the points established here: https://youtube.com/watch?v=hY740NlQLmA

I'll resume it quickly. Sonic was made in an era where there were absolutely no rules on how everything should work or fit as a standard, as a result, developers were trying different things to spice up gameplay or see how they worked. You may think that Green Hill Zone is the only stage worth playing, well, it was the stage that developers continuously focused to polish on, the one that got the most attention because it was the first stage. But later stages provided different feelings, emotions to the player (even the slow-paced ones like Labyrinth and Marble Zone), they were trying to see how to fit the blue hedgehog with different plays. I would say that if Sonic had consisted purely of Green Hill Zone-like stages for the rest, it wouldn't be as memorable, specially considering the time period (and because while Sonic was fast, in reality, it would get this reputation properly by Sonic 2 anyway)

"but as a whole its doesn't hold up, and its transition into 3D has been mess upon mess upon mess"

I already discussed the original game and 2D series, they hold up very well in fact. As for 3D, well, that's another topic to discuss, for some people it has been a hit or a miss. They continued to sold well so even if people call it messy, it still does fairly well, I could talk about Sonic 06 but that was the result of outright mismanagement and trying to do things as fast as possible. It does have some nice music though.


Well maybe if they spent the 8 months on the other levels they would be fun to play as well, but they didn't, which makes the game feel really lopsided, and then put in Sonic 2 and I think the MS one had it as well. I got the Sega 3D pack on my 3DS and I've played and finished Sonic 1 recently. Sonic Mania seems to be the first sonic game people have liked in quite a while, and as far as I can tell from watching some play throughs, its Sonic 2 DX. Sonic and Knuckles had some variety to it..

ShiningSun wrote:
"The Wonderboys have had a comeback but play the originals and oh dear.."

...? There isn't anything in the gameplay that is wrong with Wonderboys, sometimes experimental here and there but for the most part is one of the most solid series in the Sega catalog...?

In the monster world one? 3rd one lair or world, the naming system is very complicated I don't really keep up with it, but the first area where you have to jump on the moving platforms, the controls are just horrible, to the point they made the water not kill you and you just run along the water and jump out the other side. Sega were rough around the edges and since we now know they where made in a room with devs at a table like a class room and manager sitting at the front facing them like a teacher, 3 people per game. We understand why, Mario world plays like a dream still. And again from 94-18 there was nothing, so now maybe with the remakes people are going to dig the other ones up, but for 24 years there was no new game to introduce new players.
ShiningSun wrote:
Alex Kid, Who? Shinobi who?

Alex Kidd (not Kid) was one of the earliest Sega mascots, it mostly shone with the Sega Master System demographic but it was quickly replaced by Sonic, and that's where the focus went. Back then Sega couldn't just focus on all their franchises one by one since they were still smaller and needed to play their cards right, and for the most part, they were an arcade manufacturer. I would say Alex Kidd does holds very well on that platform, as for Shinobi. It was a staple of the late 80's and early 90's, with music by Yuzo Koshiro (at least with Revenge of Shinobi) so is a cool series.

" tries to think of another MD game that would appeal to the general public.. Streets of Rage was ace.. Oh no new ones of them..."

Streets of Rage 4 was announced last year. You're welcome.
So maybe when it releases and if it is good it might then start to make new people look up SR 1,2,3 just there has been nothing to make people aware they exist in the 25 years. This is my point.
ShiningSun wrote:

"Sega just don't have the presence to sustain their past, you had to be a person who sadly got the MD back in the day to appreciate it, there is nothing to funnel people back into the MD or MS or the Saturn or the Dreamcast.. "

"Sadly" huh? I recall on a poll of the early 90's that many kids and teenagers of the era did not tell their classmates that they had a SNES due to a fear of being bullied or completely ignored in classes, as the Genesis was the cool device of the era. And it did extremely well back then, as for new people. Well, there are plenty of space shooters in there, along with some interesting arcade conversions and the like and Ristar. It has quite the catalogue (much more than what the TG16 did at least) and some hidden gems so ignoring it or calling it "nothing to funnel people back" is just outright wrong, specially considering that the new Genesis Mini has been the top item of "Must buy" preorder list on Amazon Japan, the country in which the Sega Genesis did the worst in terms of sales.

you speak of the Genesis, from what I can tell Sega of America had a solid marketing campaign early on in the Genesis life, this made it the "cool, gory yeah tough stuff with 'tude" console, while Nintendo was the boring "family friendly" console. I speak of the Mega Drive, which got pummeled by Nintendo. But kids are dumb and try to prove what they have is the best.. like how the SNES sucked because Mortal Kombat didn't have blood and guts in it.. sure but I have a better pad with 6 buttons and shoulder buttons making it much easier to play, oh and SFII I'll live without the blood. I believe in America thou buy the mid 90s the SNES was on top there as well, hence the needs for the CD,32X oh dear anything to make us look good while we wait for the Saturn to get us back the market.

Meanwhile Nintendo
Make Mario Sunshine hey this is fun, what was the old one like, Mario 64 its still fun.
New Super mario bros hey this is fun, what the old one like, Mario world, Super Mario 1,3 fun as well.
Galaxy fun, lets look back a bit, sunshine fun, Mario 64 fun.
Galaxy 2
New super mario bros 2
super mario 3d world, hey lets check out the original.. I have a cape this is awesome.. oh look at all this neat tech, and hacks and hacks and hacks sweet
Super mario maker, IT LETS YOU MAKE 1,3,World, New Super games... sweeeeeet
Odyssey this is great, what are the old ones like, Galaxy 2 that's fun, 1 is too oooo sunshine, 64 these are all great.

Zelda between worlds.. what is the original like.. Link to the past this is still good, I like it.. oh randomized sweet.. what was 2 like.. ehh okay not me for me, 1 its a bit simple.. oh but that GB one looks good, what Minish cap the forums say.. yay its amazing..
Breath of the wild is good > Twilight is good > OOt is good > majora too

Metroid Returns hey this is great, the gb version is a bit meh though.. Super metroid WOW, Zero mission, Fusion sweet. Prime 4 is coming, goes back and looks a 3,2,1

Donkey Kong Country Returns, what was this before, 1,2,3 these are fun too...

Nice big funnel to the past

Sega
Wonderboy nothing for 24 years
Sonic horrible games for decades
Ristar nope
Golden Axe nothing from 9<11 year gap>08, and the 08 game was not a hit nothing since
Sega Rally 94,98,<8 year gap>06,07,08 decent run
Shinobi 95<7 year gap>02/3 not a hit, not seen since
House of the Dead hey this is still going and people have probably played the older ones.

Does it have great games worthy of playing sure but without the brand, or a new game to get people interested in there is no funnel. Nintendo has it, and makes updates of their old games, and builds the brands, they still stand, Sega's are "find an old guy and ask them if there is something on that other console worth playing".

ShiningSun wrote:
The Saturn...well, that was a trainwreck and lack of communication. It was Sega's attempt at trying to get back the Japanese market and ignore the NA and European one. It does have a few cult games like Panzer Dragoon and Sakura Taisen so is definitely not a bad system, but then again the PS1 did crush everyone in the competition worldwide, including Nintendo so...

Dreamcast was an interesting thing, I like the arcade-y exclusives the console had and it was overall a nice console. It has also seen a stable homebrew community, an OS (NetBSD) and more. But this was the time in which Sony just crushed the competition so it couldn't live for long.

"Comix Zone is Impressive, but I don't think its Star Fox, Yoshi's Island, Virtua Racing or Star Ocean impressive."

Is very easy to be "Impressive" when Star Fox, Yoshi's Island, Virtua Racing and Star Ocean all used additional custom chips embedded into the games to further add 3D graphics, more colors, better processing, etc. to the main console. The reason why Comix Zone is impressive is because it did all that it had with a regular Genesis cartridge with no add-ons. Is easier to say "Look how amazing this game is" on the SNES when yours have an ARM coprocessor that is significantly more powerful than the console itself, is different when all you have to work with is a standard cartridge with none.

But they are still games on a 16bit machine with 16bit era chips in them, its not added 32bit SH-1 cpus to it. But sure "neat" only, Secret of mana 2 very pretty, the cut scenes of Terranigma also spring to mind. Tales of Phantasia. Does Batman on the MegaCD count as 16bit with its extra 68K and Scaler chip?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:30 am 
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Oziphantom wrote:
Well maybe if they spent the 8 months on the other levels they would be fun to play as well, but they didn't, which makes the game feel really lopsided, and then put in Sonic 2 and I think the MS one had it as well. I got the Sega 3D pack on my 3DS and I've played and finished Sonic 1 recently. Sonic Mania seems to be the first sonic game people have liked in quite a while, and as far as I can tell from watching some play throughs, its Sonic 2 DX. Sonic and Knuckles had some variety to it..


Oziphantom wrote:
In the monster world one? 3rd one lair or world, the naming system is very complicated I don't really keep up with it, but the first area where you have to jump on the moving platforms, the controls are just horrible, to the point they made the water not kill you and you just run along the water and jump out the other side. Sega were rough around the edges and since we now know they where made in a room with devs at a table like a class room and manager sitting at the front facing them like a teacher, 3 people per game. We understand why, Mario world plays like a dream still. And again from 94-18 there was nothing, so now maybe with the remakes people are going to dig the other ones up, but for 24 years there was no new game to introduce new players.

Oziphantom wrote:
So maybe when it releases and if it is good it might then start to make new people look up SR 1,2,3 just there has been nothing to make people aware they exist in the 25 years. This is my point.



Oziphantom wrote:
you speak of the Genesis, from what I can tell Sega of America had a solid marketing campaign early on in the Genesis life, this made it the "cool, gory yeah tough stuff with 'tude" console, while Nintendo was the boring "family friendly" console. I speak of the Mega Drive, which got pummeled by Nintendo. But kids are dumb and try to prove what they have is the best.. like how the SNES sucked because Mortal Kombat didn't have blood and guts in it.. sure but I have a better pad with 6 buttons and shoulder buttons making it much easier to play, oh and SFII I'll live without the blood. I believe in America thou buy the mid 90s the SNES was on top there as well, hence the needs for the CD,32X oh dear anything to make us look good while we wait for the Saturn to get us back the market.

Meanwhile Nintendo
Make Mario Sunshine hey this is fun, what was the old one like, Mario 64 its still fun.
New Super mario bros hey this is fun, what the old one like, Mario world, Super Mario 1,3 fun as well.
Galaxy fun, lets look back a bit, sunshine fun, Mario 64 fun.
Galaxy 2
New super mario bros 2
super mario 3d world, hey lets check out the original.. I have a cape this is awesome.. oh look at all this neat tech, and hacks and hacks and hacks sweet
Super mario maker, IT LETS YOU MAKE 1,3,World, New Super games... sweeeeeet
Odyssey this is great, what are the old ones like, Galaxy 2 that's fun, 1 is too oooo sunshine, 64 these are all great.

Zelda between worlds.. what is the original like.. Link to the past this is still good, I like it.. oh randomized sweet.. what was 2 like.. ehh okay not me for me, 1 its a bit simple.. oh but that GB one looks good, what Minish cap the forums say.. yay its amazing..
Breath of the wild is good > Twilight is good > OOt is good > majora too

Metroid Returns hey this is great, the gb version is a bit meh though.. Super metroid WOW, Zero mission, Fusion sweet. Prime 4 is coming, goes back and looks a 3,2,1

Donkey Kong Country Returns, what was this before, 1,2,3 these are fun too...

Nice big funnel to the past

Sega
Wonderboy nothing for 24 years
Sonic horrible games for decades
Ristar nope
Golden Axe nothing from 9<11 year gap>08, and the 08 game was not a hit nothing since
Sega Rally 94,98,<8 year gap>06,07,08 decent run
Shinobi 95<7 year gap>02/3 not a hit, not seen since
House of the Dead hey this is still going and people have probably played the older ones.

Does it have great games worthy of playing sure but without the brand, or a new game to get people interested in there is no funnel. Nintendo has it, and makes updates of their old games, and builds the brands, they still stand, Sega's are "find an old guy and ask them if there is something on that other console worth playing".

But they are still games on a 16bit machine with 16bit era chips in them, its not added 32bit SH-1 cpus to it. But sure "neat" only, Secret of mana 2 very pretty, the cut scenes of Terranigma also spring to mind. Tales of Phantasia. Does Batman on the MegaCD count as 16bit with its extra 68K and Scaler chip?


Ok so I'm going to address your quotes by numbers since it is easier for me.

1) The development of Sonic the Hedgehog was done by a small team at Sega, not only that, Sega themselves weren't expecting Sonic to do well, they expected it would do just "decently" so one can't realistically expect that a single game would have an unrealistic amount of time (Let's say 8 months per level, there are six which means about 4 years of development, at a time where games were expected to be out in 9 to 12 months)

As for the other levels, many people still find Spring Yard Zone and Star Light Zone among their favourites, in fact, it was Spring Yard Zone feel of spinball that Casino Night Zone from Sonic 2 was inspired from. Marble Zone and Labyrinth Zone but they were necessary, sure, if you feel is not so fun of a game right now I won't say much, is your own assessment, but historically speaking, these zones were needed to shape the blue's blur identity. So again, I wouldn't call them repetitive or loopsided, since their intention was the opposite of that.

2) ...I understood nothing what you said there, you mean Monster's Lair or Dragon's Trap? if it's the former, then I'm very confused because that game played very well and without problems (on my end) on both the Sega Genesis and Turbografx 16 CD, was it the arcade original? or because you didn't get the controls so you called them horrible and you compared this to Mario....what? Like, one is an arcade-focused game while Mario is Mario, I really understood nothing what you said there

3) You should watch some of the videos from strafefox who explain this, but by the time Streets of Rage 3 came out, the public's perception on beat'em up games has gotten down, it wasn't as requested or popular as before and so it was the last outing it had, it was simply a trend because by then games of that style simply didn't fit with the new "cool" era of the mid 90's who wanted more revolutionary 3D graphics, signs that define the 90's culture and Kool-Aid. Feel free to check out his channel, he explains the whole development process behind that game

4) Most of your accounts seems to be your personal experiences with these. Even in Europe, Sega did very well with the "Megadrive" (which is the Japanese/EU name of the Genesis, which at this point you should know by now), now, the blood of Mortal Kombat or the gamepad are incredibly subjective topics. Some people love the feel and touch of the Genesis while they disdain or don't like as much the SNES one and viceversa, you seem to be among the latter but controllers are a personal choice and for what's worth the controller did a pretty good job (considering how many people love it, myself included) so is not something I will discuss.

Street Fighter II, ah yes, if there's a reason why the port was somewhat botched in comparison to the SNES one. Well, I can explain that easily, if you watch Gaming Historian's video of Mega Man games on Sega (as easy as typing "Gaming Historian Megaman Sega on Youtube) you can see and understand that Capcom formed a strong relationship with Nintendo, a very strong one. In fact, even after Sega and Capcom had made a deal with Mega Man, they still only let them use with their Sega Channel service and nothing else while Capcom focused their efforts almost exclusively on Nintendo platforms (This changed quite dramatically during the fifth Gen, when the Playstation took off)

So, and even though the Genesis should be the ideal platform due to similar architectures (I believe the original SFII was developed on a Sharp X68k, which shares the same architecture as the Genesis), they didn't really do that well or strong of a job with it due to fearing that their Nintendo port might've been overlooked in favour of the Genesis one (That, and that the port of the Genesis seemed more like an afterthought) so nobody can blame Sega for this, is really more of a Capcom thing of the era.

During the mid 90's it was dominated by the Playstation as Sony practically crushed the competition, if you mean the period between 1994 and 1996 in terms of sales perhaps, but even then, the Genesis still continued to do well. If you mean the add-ons, I think most people skipped them. I myself am not a fan of the 32x but I do dig the Sega CD for a few personal reasons of mine (mostly some of the Japanese games in there) but I do think that Sega shouldn't have come out with the 32x, this was, however, a result of mismanagement and lack of communication between Sega of Japan and America, which caused problems and divisions (because Sega of Japan wanted to focus on the Japanese market and they let SoA do whatever they wanted)

As for those last points...well, Sega really didn't needed to expand or keep their old brands fresh and new since they were a third party developer by then. The difference between a first party developer and a third one is that the former needs to constantly produce games (even if they are repeats or samey games like New Super Mario Bros) and innovate or keep the formula "fun and stable" (as in the case of Sunshine, and for the detriment of Sticker Star) while the latter...they don't, for all they care, they could release a title every 3 years and that's it, they aren't obligated to keep any responsibility over that.

If Sega was a first party developer while still making consoles then yes, even they would've tried to do something If they were, but they weren't. So most of your points regarding those titles are...well, pretty moot. Because by then they could just keep floating with Sonic and their arcade machines and ports (like Super Monkey Ball), I will say that Nintendo did a lot to keep their brand games have a bit of time and sequels during their heyday, but then again...F-Zero hasn't seen a release in ages, Mother is basically dead and 3 won't be brought over to the States or Europe, Startropics was a game that came and went and some of the games you mention don't really add anything "new" or revolutionary to the formula. The most consistent brands would be Zelda and Mario and even they had their downs and ups (Need to remind you the CDi games)

I won't defend Sega's attitude with their old games, because I think that they could've done a better job at keeping some of their franchises better fed since they became a third party but even then: Games like Ecco the Dolphin, Comix Zone, Vectorman, Shining Force or Beyond Oasis are all beautiful games that tried to do something different or out of the formula. I can't speak for most people, but I have seen a ton of gamers trying to find games that don't necessarily have "strong brands" related to them, and they end up getting popular again or interesting due to word of mouth or exposure (which was the case with Spyro the Dragon)

As I said, when you are a third party developer, you can choose or not to keep your franchises alive (If you doubt, look at Capcom or Konami nowadays, they can tell you a thing or two) as for the "horrible Sonic games that came for decades" well that's pretty debatable but at the same time subjective, I'll end that most of them were successes in terms of sales, we could discuss quality but that's another topic.

Again, if people really didn't bothered with Sega's interesting approaches from the past, then, the Sega Genesis mini wouldn't be one of the most preordered on Amazon.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:02 am 
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Edit: Oops, I completely missed the above comment, as it was posted while I was writing this...

Oziphantom wrote:
I speak of the Mega Drive, which got pummeled by Nintendo.

What region? It's well known that the "Mega Drive" (not "Genesis") handily outsold the SNES in Europe and probably just anywhere that isn't Japan. And there seems to be a common narrative that the SNES crushed the Genesis in the United States, but if I'm not mistaken, it took all the way till 1994 for the SNES to surpass the Genesis in sales here. Sega (of America) did a damn good job (until they imploded, anyway) considering they were fighting an uphill battle.

And because you mention the controller, the Sega 6-button controller has the same number of buttons as an SNES controller, taking the MODE button into account. People say it feels awful to hold, but it doesn't bother me at all and actually works rather well for many games. The only problem with it is that it didn't come packaged with the console.

Sega has, unfortunately, gained themselves a reputation for abandoning their IPs. I do think part of the problem is that in an age where games are expected to be fairly easy but take 20+ hours to complete, most all of Sega's franchises are arcade games or very arcade like. Referring to the game I started this thread over, I don't see how a faithful sequel to this game would fare well in today's market.

Oziphantom wrote:
But they are still games on a 16bit machine with 16bit era chips in them

The SNES appears to be little more than a framebuffer for Super FX chip in StarFox though. However, I have always found Yoshi's Island to be impressive, regardless of the Super FX 2 chip inside. All of those stretched sprites need to be allocated in vram somehow, and as already mentioned, the artwork is fantastic.

ShiningSun wrote:
The games that do mostly benefit from special effects or hardware tricks are shooters and there were lots of them for the Genesis: https://youtube.com/watch?v=wvlRCks1Kn8

The only thing about shooters though, (for any system) is that while they have to do tons of calculations very fast, the calculations really aren't that complex; basically just collision detection and moving stuff around. There's often no physics or any real ai involved, and animation often isn't much beyond moving cardboard cutouts with nearly all graphics statically allocated in vram. (Honestly, look at Rendering Ranger for a perfect example. The game is slowRom though, lol.) Run and guns are typically a bit better though; I'd say Gunstar Heroes is probably more impressive than any shmup for the system.

ShiningSun wrote:
If I go by "Impressive" in terms of music, is Tallarico's compositions for the Sega Genesis. Like Cool Spot or Earthworm Jim, because he used GEMS

Comix Zone also uses GEMS, and not to say the music in Earthworm Jim is bad, but I think the music in Comix Zone is more impressive; the acoustic guitar patch and all the power chords sound extraordinary. It also has the awful metallic screeching noises at a minimum, which, on the Genesis, is rare for the style of music it's going for.

93143 wrote:
I just watched a playthrough of Comix Zone, and while it's impressive I really don't see it being out of reach for the SNES. On the other hand, I've been sadly delayed in my own development efforts, while Drew I think has spent a lot of time on basic engine infrastructure, so his judgement may be better than mine...

To be honest, I don't see it being out of reach for the SNES either, but as you said earlier, the systems are evenly matched to a surprising degree. I don't think the Genesis can really do much besides software rendering (and maybe some crazy physics-intensive stuff?) that the SNES can't. Conversely, I think Mode 7 is the only area that the Genesis can't do at all what the SNES can. Outside of this, there are niceties that are mostly cosmetic that each system posses but the other does not that I don't really need to go over because we already know them. (I've always thought that color math was a really underrated feature of the SNES that really helps it stand out from even arcade machines of the time)

I will say though, the thought of trying to fit all the sprite graphics into 16KB for this game is agonizing... I don't know how much of it is dynamically allocated on the Genesis, probably a lot, but most everything but the HUD would have to be for the SNES. Unfortunately, I haven't done anything for the SNES in a long time now. Trying to efficiently code drawing metasprites from linked lists with entries pointing to dynamically allocated memory in vram, while dealing with only two index registers and the SNES's awful video hardware interface, became such a chore that it became way more frustrating than fun for me.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:39 am 
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The youtube video was nice


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:47 am 
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1.) When I say Sonic I meant Sonic as in Mario not Sonic 1 for the Megadrive. I mean the concept and whole range of Sonic games. You love sonic, I think it was Average at best. Lets leave it at that it doesn't matter, I will enjoy my new mario games and you can enjoy your old sonic games.

2.) Looks like it was Monster World I loved Wonder Boy, I had it on my 64 and that was a not so great port, but it played fine, I just found this one to control really stiffly, getting on to a platform was effort, probably fine for the era, but didn't hold up for the 2010s to me.

3.) I understand that Beat-em-ups died. Again you are focusing on the tiny leaf and missing the forest.
The interview on shumplilations with Ayano Koshiro is quite good as well.

4.) Europe and Brazil was the Megadrives strong hold I though since Nintendo were dicks to Europe during the NES era, when in England I met a lot of Sega fans, who all had and played SNES. The nostalgia nerd even waxes lyrical about the MS. I'm in Aus. Nintendo seemed to own Japan, with Square,Enix and Capcom focusing almost solely on Nintendo. We have to remember that the MD got a 2 and bit year head in start in same cases, so while it might have take the SNES 2 years to get ahead in terms of total sales in order to do so it was selling as well as or faster than the MD was selling before the SNES was launched, and in order to win had to be massively outselling the MD while it was on the market. The MD had 2 years up against the NES which it wins easily, then the SNES turns up and turns the tide back.

5.) I don't think the controller is subjective in a global sense, there are people who prefer the MD pad, however it is wildly considered fact that the SNES pad is the best 2D pad, getting a SNES pad is very easy, clones, adapters and while Sega kept the MD layout for the Saturn they folded and used the SNES layout for the Dreamcast, the PSX/2/3/4/P/V use the SNES layout, the Xbox/360/one use the SNES layout. Google Stadia SNES, Steam controller has the SNES layout. The SNES pad is the defacto design, the Saturn is the only other machine that I can think of that uses the MD layout. While Nintendo innovated with the N64, GC pads, the GBA/DS/3DS and the joy cons have the SNES layout, as do the Pro controllers.

the Capcom CPS system was a X68K with 2 of the sprite chips, so the 68K was half the arcade, the MD is less again. So I would think while the MD does have a 68K chip I don't think the custom Sharp chips match the MDs VDP. The fact the X68K has 1MB RAM, 1MB+ VRAM probably also helps. The SNES's better sprite capabilities and background capabilities probably make up some ground.

But lets turn this around. and get back to Koitsu's point.

Given the MD is an amazing machine that won the war and has the best pad, with lots of top tier games that are loved by everybody and all the Sega fans have raced out to buy the new mini, and there are more fans than for the SNES/NES mini. Then why is SNES/NES the defacto, why does SNES/NES get the twitch streams, why does SNES/NES have the solid accurate emulators, the translation patches, the hacks ? The current AGDQ has 55 more Nintendo titles than Sega ones.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:37 am 
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Oziphantom wrote:
so while it might have take the SNES 2 years to get ahead in terms of total sales

Wait, what? It was not only 2 years by any means, and I thought it was debatable the SNES outsold the Genesis/MD in total sales when you take into account the rest of the world.

Oziphantom wrote:
The Capcom CPS system was a X68K with 2 of the sprite chips, so the 68K was half the arcade, the MD is less again. So I would think while the MD does have a 68K chip I don't think the custom Sharp chips match the MDs VDP. The fact the X68K has 1MB RAM, 1MB+ VRAM probably also helps. The SNES's better sprite capabilities and background capabilities probably make up some ground.

What does this even mean? If you're trying to say the SNES has better sprite capabilities than the Genesis, unless there's the rare scenario where there are more than 80 different objects onscreen, the SNES's sprite system is usually worse than the Genesis's.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:15 pm 
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Drew Sebastino wrote:
I will say though, the thought of trying to fit all the sprite graphics into 16KB for this game is agonizing... I don't know how much of it is dynamically allocated on the Genesis, probably a lot, but most everything but the HUD would have to be for the SNES.

Does that hand ever share scanlines with an effect that absolutely needs two 4bpp BG layers? It's completely static and could easily be a BG layer itself.

Quote:
Unfortunately, I haven't done anything for the SNES in a long time now. Trying to efficiently code drawing metasprites from linked lists with entries pointing to dynamically allocated memory in vram, while dealing with only two index registers and the SNES's awful video hardware interface, became such a chore that it became way more frustrating than fun for me.

That is unfortunate. Perhaps you'll come back around to it some day.

Drew Sebastino wrote:
unless there's the rare scenario where there are more than 80 different objects onscreen, the SNES's sprite system is usually worse than the Genesis's.

Mega Drive also has only 16 or 20 sprites per line, so 8-wide sprites drop out just as fast as 16-wide. That and the sprite count limit are the two biggest disadvantages, I think (leaving aside palettes).

I don't think it's fair to dismiss the case where arbitrary sprite sizing doesn't make up for the lack of raw numbers. I'd love to have MD-style sprite sizes for my shmup port, but I wouldn't sacrifice 48 OAM entries for it (or 64, since with the amount of software rendering I'm doing I'd probably need to use H32 mode)...

If you're not pushing the limits, a MD programmer undoubtedly has an easier job (again, leaving aside palettes). Nintendo didn't really figure out developer-friendly hardware design until the GameCube...


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:05 pm 
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Drew Sebastino wrote:
but if I'm not mistaken, it took all the way till 1994 for the SNES to surpass the Genesis in sales here.

So the Release dates of the MegaDrive are listed as
JP: October 29, 1988
NA: August 14, 1989
KOR: August 1990
PAL: September 1990
BRA: September 1, 1990

The SNES
JP: November 21, 1990
NA: August 23, 1991
UK: April 11, 1992
IRL: April 11, 1992
EU: June 1992
AU: July 3, 1992
BR: August 30, 1993

So in NA the MD had basically almost dead on 2 years head start. Although it seems in American 94 was 3 years after the SNES launch, while in PAL it was 2. So in order for the SNES to win in 94, this means that the SNES sold more in 3 years than the MD did in 5 years. But to be fair I broke it down into the first 2 years of the SNES out paced the MDs first 2 years of sales, upon the SNES launched I would accept that the MD sales dried up, so the next 3 years of MD sales were a lot less and hence the SNES basically out sold the 2 years of solid MD sales + change rather than a full 5 years of solid sales.

However on Wikipedia Though the Genesis had a two year lead to launch time, a much larger library of games, and a lower price point,[36] it only represented an estimated 60% of the American 16-bit console market in June 1992,[37] and neither console could maintain a definitive lead for several years. 40% in 10months... ouch...

The figures floating around show the SNES a good 10million+ over the MD.

Snes 128 sprites, 32 per line
MD 80 sprites, 20 per line
X68000 128 sprites, 32 per line
CPS1 256 sprites, 256 per line,I'm not sure this is true the source I have a limited and questionable


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:36 pm 
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When I said "outsold the Genesis in 1994", I meant in North America only; I doubt the SNES ever outsold the MD in Europe.

Oziphantom wrote:
Snes 128 sprites, 32 per line
MD 80 sprites, 20 per line
X68000 128 sprites, 32 per line
CPS1 256 sprites, 256 per line

This isn't the full picture though; you're forgetting about the sprite pixels per scanline limit, which means the SNES will, under most every circumstance, experience sprite dropout long before ever hitting that limit. The X68000's sprite pixel per line limit is reached exactly when its sprite per line limit is reached. The X68000 easily has the best sprite capability of the three systems (with multiplexing anyway, which is done in a couple of games). I couldn't tell you a single thing about the CPS1's sprite capabilities.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:45 pm 
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Oziphantom wrote:
Snes 128 sprites, 32 per line
MD 80 sprites, 20 per line

SNES

All modes (512-pixel line modes don't affect sprites):
- 128 sprites
- 32 per line
- 34 8-pixel slivers per line (106.25% overdraw)
- drops frontmost sprites when overloaded
- 8x8, 16x16, 32x32 or 64x64 - pick two globally; individual sprites can only be "small" or "large"
- 8 dedicated 4bpp sprite palettes (can also be accessed by 8bpp BG layers)
- two 8 KB tile data tables in VRAM, table 0 freely relocatable in 16 KB increments, table 1 offset from table 0 in 8 KB increments*
- tile data tables are in 16x16-tile grids, so you can lay them out on graph paper, but you can't DMA individual sprites in one shot if they're 16x16 or larger
- compact 544-byte object attribute memory format, stored in dedicated RAM on PPU die: 4.25 bytes per sprite, with size selection and high bit of X-coordinate combined in a mini-table at the top of OAM with 4 sprites per byte, making it fiddly to build the image

*Tile data locations can be changed mid-screen, but this is difficult to make use of unless a large fraction of the sprite data is used in very predictable locations, such as in a fake BG layer made of tiled sprites.

Mega Drive

H40 mode (320 pixels per line):
- 80 sprites
- 20 per line
- 40 8-pixel slivers per line (100% overdraw)

H32 mode (256 pixels per line):
- 64 sprites
- 16 per line
- 32 8-pixel slivers per line (100% overdraw)

- drops rearmost sprites when overloaded
- 8/16/24/32 pixels height and width, each dimension selected independently per sprite
- 4 shared 4bpp palettes between BGs and sprites
- all of VRAM is available for sprite data at all times
- sprite tiles are stored linearly in VRAM, so a single DMA transfer can write a whole sprite regardless of its size and shape
- sprite attribute table in VRAM: 8 bytes per sprite, less compact format uses 16-bit coordinates and doesn't combine multiple sprites into one byte anywhere, making it easier to build

EDIT: changed "ROM" to "VRAM" in SNES description. Silly mistake.


Last edited by 93143 on Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:51 am 
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Oziphantom wrote:
1.) When I say Sonic I meant Sonic as in Mario not Sonic 1 for the Megadrive. I mean the concept and whole range of Sonic games. You love sonic, I think it was Average at best. Lets leave it at that it doesn't matter, I will enjoy my new mario games and you can enjoy your old sonic games.

4.) Europe and Brazil was the Megadrives strong hold I though since Nintendo were dicks to Europe during the NES era, when in England I met a lot of Sega fans, who all had and played SNES. The nostalgia nerd even waxes lyrical about the MS. I'm in Aus. Nintendo seemed to own Japan, with Square,Enix and Capcom focusing almost solely on Nintendo. We have to remember that the MD got a 2 and bit year head in start in same cases, so while it might have take the SNES 2 years to get ahead in terms of total sales in order to do so it was selling as well as or faster than the MD was selling before the SNES was launched, and in order to win had to be massively outselling the MD while it was on the market. The MD had 2 years up against the NES which it wins easily, then the SNES turns up and turns the tide back.

5.) I don't think the controller is subjective in a global sense, there are people who prefer the MD pad, however it is wildly considered fact that the SNES pad is the best 2D pad, getting a SNES pad is very easy, clones, adapters and while Sega kept the MD layout for the Saturn they folded and used the SNES layout for the Dreamcast, the PSX/2/3/4/P/V use the SNES layout, the Xbox/360/one use the SNES layout. Google Stadia SNES, Steam controller has the SNES layout. The SNES pad is the defacto design, the Saturn is the only other machine that I can think of that uses the MD layout. While Nintendo innovated with the N64, GC pads, the GBA/DS/3DS and the joy cons have the SNES layout, as do the Pro controllers.

the Capcom CPS system was a X68K with 2 of the sprite chips, so the 68K was half the arcade, the MD is less again. So I would think while the MD does have a 68K chip I don't think the custom Sharp chips match the MDs VDP. The fact the X68K has 1MB RAM, 1MB+ VRAM probably also helps. The SNES's better sprite capabilities and background capabilities probably make up some ground.

But lets turn this around. and get back to Koitsu's point.

Given the MD is an amazing machine that won the war and has the best pad, with lots of top tier games that are loved by everybody and all the Sega fans have raced out to buy the new mini, and there are more fans than for the SNES/NES mini. Then why is SNES/NES the defacto, why does SNES/NES get the twitch streams, why does SNES/NES have the solid accurate emulators, the translation patches, the hacks ? The current AGDQ has 55 more Nintendo titles than Sega ones.




1) I specifically recall you mention the first Sonic outing, and while I do have nostalgia with Sonic (quite), I won't be defending all the games the blue blur ever had (considering Forces and Sonic Boom aren't...particularly good so I heard, the 3DS versions of Boom are decent I heard though), but you never mentioned anything about comparing him to Mario, you were talking about the first game as its own standalone being, but oh well, let's leave it at that, perhaps we just misunderstood each other? Hmm.... (for the record, I do like Mario games too, I don't have anything against him, but his recent formula with New Super Mario Bros is something I don't approve but that's just on me anyway)

I'll skip 2) and 3) as I don't have that much knowledge of Wonder Boy, I do hear is a good series of games and is highly recommended so, perhaps it was some other game that got you confused about that (not related to Wonderboy) as for Streets of Rage. Well, since beat em ups died, I guess Sega didn't really have that much of an incentive considering they simply didn't sold or were trending after SoR3, you mentioned that they could've kept up with the brand but they really didn't have much more to add, don't know about this forest or leaf thing you mention but I don't think a forest of "SoR" would've gone well for the series considering it wouldn't be the market successes Sega would hope.

4) I'm not a fan of sales figures, I have heard of some accounts that the Genesis sold more than the SNES in NA (even after hit games like Donkey Kong Country or Super Mario RPG) and others the opposite, there are accounts that the units sold by Nintendo are for retailers and not necessarily for consumers. I do know that the region of Brazil and Europe were Sega dominant, the NA you could say about even (both consoles were successes anyway) and Japan was where Nintendo was crushing the competition (On Japan, as long as you have Dragon Quest onboard and exclusively for your console, you're going to do very well, a reason why Sony was able to stab back hard at Nintendo)

Joypads are still a matter of taste for people. I do still think the layout of the Sega Genesis was fine, it certainly did its job and did so very well. That companies aim to take designs or inspire from others isn't anything surprising, but by no means it was a bad controller. Besides, and including the Sega Genesis controller, all of them used the d-pad featured on the NES controller, though I'll say that the NES controller is kinda uncomfortable despite how "popular" it is, if compared to that controller, the Sega Genesis is a joy to hold. Another wonderful thing you can do with the SG controller is that you can plug that onto an Atari 2600 or Atari 7800 and use them there, bet you can't do that on a Super Nintendo controller? The N64 controller...I heard a lot of people complaining about it, about how awkward it was, specially on 2D games, and how the d-pad on that console was terrible, along with the GC one. Even the Wii's dpad received mixed responses, so I don't think Nintendo's own controllers, despite "innovating" did all that for the pure good. The SNES controller is indeed a really good controller that companies based their layouts on, nothing wrong with that, but the Sega Genesis controller is still a good controller with its own identity, something not many controllers can claim nowadays.

I believe some of the posters here already talked about the hardware of both consoles well so I'll leave that to them. I do think both consoles have things that one can do better than the other and viceversa, however, one big advantage the Sega Genesis had over the SNES were hardware development tools, coding for the Sega Genesis is (I heard) significantly less annoying and with more tools to boot, speaking of which....

"Given the MD is an amazing machine that won the war and has the best pad, with lots of top tier games that are loved by everybody and all the Sega fans have raced out to buy the new mini, and there are more fans than for the SNES/NES mini. Then why is SNES/NES the defacto, why does SNES/NES get the twitch streams, why does SNES/NES have the solid accurate emulators, the translation patches, the hacks ? The current AGDQ has 55 more Nintendo titles than Sega ones"

Why are you bringing the NES here? that was another console released years before the Genesis. It competed with the Master System so no, I'm going to disregard the NES here as I believe has its own category, however, I can follow up the rest with the SNES.

"de facto" in terms of what? People's brand recognition? Sales? longevity? The SNES was a good console, and yes you can see that many people consider it one of their favourites, nothing wrong with that. But I already discussed sales, hardware is in discussion with other members, brand recognition depends as (I believe) most games for the Genesis featured the "SEGA" logo at the start, so people immediately recognize what you're talking when shown the logo, sorry, but this is too vague, be more clear or specific. (Popularity is also debatable depending on where you're talking about)

"Twitch streams", what, for speedruns? there's plenty of that for both consoles, they both have alive scenes, I don't think twitch streams are an indicator for anything noteworthy outside of speedruns, longplays and perhaps completionists. That's another niche or topic to talk about, feel free to explain that out on another point.

Accurate emulators, well. This is a topic I'm comfortable with and one that the Sega Genesis actually benefits quite. So the SNES has ZSNES, an emulator that is known to be incredibly inaccurate, to say the least, and it has a bad rep of people telling you to switch to something decent (Which, at the time, was and still is Snes9X), the other incredibly accurate emulator is Higan, is a really good emulator but its requirements and lacks of optimizations have put off some people for using it. Most people go use either Snes9X or BSNES for the tasks of playing videogames (and they may even use forks of those, like bsnes-mercury which I believe adds more speed optimizations, but that's for retroarch)

During the time the ZSNES was being bashed by some people. Kega Fusion, an emulator that hasn't seen an update in ages, is still considered one of the best emulators for the Genesis, one that holds very well, with the focus on accuracy and optimizations. During that time era another emulator that focused on speed was born called Picodrive, now ported to many different platforms (and one that does the job very well too), and from there Exodus (which is basically the Higan of the Genesis, an emulator focused on accuracy) and then Blast'Em, yet another emulator that is now feature complete that includes a debugger, PPU viewer, etc. which focuses both on accuracy and speed while also being modernly updated.

I'm sorry, but this is one case where the SNES is about even or worse overall, because even a somewhat inaccurate emulator like GEMS still proved more viable and accurate than ZSNES at the time. This is because the hardware of the Sega Genesis is much friendlier for the average developer, only one game used custom hardware chips (as opposed to the dozens on the SNES) and games were better structured and without strange glitches that would cause that one game to not do well (Remember Speedy Gonzales for the SNES? me neither)

Translation patches and hacks. Well, it depends on what you're looking for. There are a tons of terrible hacks, more doesn't equal better in this case here, and some are unnecessary, even for both consoles. Oh, I forgot to mention that a lot of these hacks were developed with ZSNES in mind so you can't run them on original hardware or more accurate emulators! isn't that great~

Translation patches, well, considering the SNES was king on Japan, is not surprising that a lot of RPG-like games or anime games were never brought over to the US/Europe. However, I did read that the Sega Genesis has less games to translate to have its whole Japanese exclusive library translated than the SNES ever will (Considering the amount of games that platform has that are Japan-exclusive) so depending on who you ask, either console seems to do fine. (In this case though, is simply case that there are more Japanese-exclusive untranslated games for the SNES than the Genesis, not much to the mystery is it?)

So now is time I bring up a point, shall I? For me, a very good indicator (one that is worth more points than anything discussed here) is a homebrew community that keeps releasing games for dead platforms. Let's see, for the Genesis we've had: Ultracore, Pier Solar (and RPG that did very well, sure, Fonzie promised Paprium and that got into a mess, but that's another topic), Tangled Woods, Xeno Crisis, etc. (The port of Planet X3 for the Genesis is also there) and I can still go on, with all these games having had physical cartridge releases and success with the public

The SNES...well, that's in a much sadder state. Considering that there've been practically speaking none that are noteworthy or getting anywhere near the same amount of attention and development as the Genesis does.

Let me conclude with this. I believe both consoles were and are great, both had its ups and downs, both were and are still beloved by loyal fans, etc. I do have a bit of a bias with the Genesis because it was the first "console" that I played (my real actual first console was a PS1, but I played Genesis earlier thanks to emulators) but I still like both consoles, I own them both. There are things I prefer over the other and so. And that's where I would like to end things here if you do agree, however, if you still feel free to reply, let's see what you got!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:29 am 
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@93143: Your Md's 8-pixel slivers per line are false .
The sprite limits are:
in H32 : 16 sprites or 256 pixels sprites
in H40 : 20 sprites or 320 pixels sprites

It's impossible to fill an entire line with 8 pixels sprites only, because you reach the sprites number limit first .


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:15 pm 
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TOUKO wrote:
It's impossible to fill an entire line with 8 pixels sprites only, because you reach the sprites number limit first .

I'm not talking about 8-pixel sprites. I'm talking about slivers, which are single-line tile slices. With sprites that are 24 or 32 pixels wide, the number of slivers that can be rendered is the bottleneck and you can't render all 16 or 20 sprites.

Same with the SNES. You can't hit the 34-sliver limit with 8x8 sprites because you can only render 32 of them. But with 16x16 or larger, you hit the sliver limit first.

My numbers are the same as yours.

ShiningSun wrote:
The N64 controller...I heard a lot of people complaining about it, about how awkward it was, specially on 2D games, and how the d-pad on that console was terrible

People complaining about the N64 controller probably never used one back in the day. All they know is jokes about growing a third arm to play games. It's actually a very comfortable controller if you don't hold it like a fool.

And the d-pad was fine; it's just that almost no games used it, and the controller was just big enough that if you were accustomed to holding it middle+right, suddenly switching to left+right felt weird.

Even the infamous analog stick wasn't really worse than what we have now IMO; it was just different. I actually prefer the feel of F-Zero X to F-Zero GX in some ways, partly because using the N64 stick feels more relaxed and natural than trying to stay on top of the springy, twitchy GC stick, which is itself a very good stick by modern standards. Unfortunately, while the optical sensors in the N64 stick were basically immortal (unlike today's potentiometers), the stick itself tended to gradually self-destruct when used vigorously, resulting in an expanding mechanical dead zone and sometimes even blocking the sensors with plastic powder, so a lot of them are in poor condition nowadays.

The N64 controller is AFAIK the only controller ever devised that incorporates a d-pad and an analog stick without compromising the ergonomics of either one. The price is that you can't use both at the same time without losing access to the main button cluster. Which is why games didn't require you to use all three at the same time...

There were almost no 2D games on the N64, which is a shame because the console was incredibly capable in 2D. An arcade-perfect port of Metal Slug with no slowdown would have been a snap.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:35 pm 
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93143 wrote:
People complaining about the N64 controller probably never used one back in the day. All they know is jokes about growing a third arm to play games. It's actually a very comfortable controller if you don't hold it like a fool.

I used one a lot back in "the day" and I think it's a terrible controller. I think every Nintendo controller after the SNES has been terrible, though.

93143 wrote:
And the d-pad was fine

That I agree with. It was a good d-pad, just mostly used for pointless things like switching weapons. :P

I would have liked to see more games that used d-pad for move and the analog stick for look, but this was before the whole dual-stick paradigm settled into 3D gaming.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:59 pm 
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93143 wrote:
TOUKO wrote:
It's impossible to fill an entire line with 8 pixels sprites only, because you reach the sprites number limit first .

I'm not talking about 8-pixel sprites. I'm talking about slivers, which are single-line tile slices. With sprites that are 24 or 32 pixels wide, the number of slivers that can be rendered is the bottleneck and you can't render all 16 or 20 sprites.

Same with the SNES. You can't hit the 34-sliver limit with 8x8 sprites because you can only render 32 of them. But with 16x16 or larger, you hit the sliver limit first.

In theory, bullets in a shmup or run and gun hit the limit earlier on a Genesis, even in H40 mode, because so many of them are 8x8.

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