Super Mario Bros.: Why all the floating money?

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Pokun
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Re: Super Mario Bros.: Why all the floating money?

Post by Pokun » Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:59 pm

Lol I mean literally.

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Re: Super Mario Bros.: Why all the floating money?

Post by Nikku4211 » Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:00 am

Pokun wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:59 pm
Lol I mean literally.
Finally, I get to be that thing that constantly kills players and can't even get killed by an invincibility star and can noclip through walls!
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Re: Super Mario Bros.: Why all the floating money?

Post by Gilbert » Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:42 am

Nikku4211 wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:22 am
You seem to underestimate how many mushrooms Mario eats. Especially in the harder sections of the game.
Well, for mushrooms that are as large as himself (and half as large as a "grown-up" Mario) eating even 1 is more than enough.

And to carry 100 coins where each can be used as a shield to cover up one's whole body (and half as... err.. you get the idea) would be awfully bulky and heavy even though they're made with paper. This makes Thor and Captain America cry!



...


...WTF was I talking about?

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Re: Super Mario Bros.: Why all the floating money?

Post by unregistered » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:56 pm

Pokun wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:42 pm
Nikku4211 wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:16 pm
Pokun wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:44 pm

He got deep pockets.
They don't look deep enough to be Mario's own size, big or small. We can't even see them at all in SMB1 on NES.
They are deep on the inside.
This is an excellent discovery! :D It’s astounding that Mario hasn’t applied for copyright or patent protection! AND, if he or his bro (or maybe even the princess) didn’t create these “deep on the inside” tiny mobile storage chasms, has anyone found a Mario memo mentioning the brand and shop where he discovered these spectacular pockets :?: I’d love to own a pair of Mario jeans! :D

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Re: Super Mario Bros.: Why all the floating money?

Post by Pokun » Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:30 am

I don't know if Mario has patent on the bag of holding though. It's pretty much standard equipment for video game characters. The main problem I have with Nikku's argument is that he says coins are as large as Mario's head, which I don't believe. That's just how they are represented in the game.

I can't explain the floating coins though. There is no in-universe explanation for it at all, as much as there is no in-universe explanation for the floating blocks. Both are just game mechanics that made sense at one point and continued into SMB, where it stopped making sense but was left in anyway. Pauline's parasol is kind of floating, but not high in the air. It's just placed where she dropped them when Donkey Kong kidnapped her. Hammers are floating, but they could really just be hanging from a holder. Mario Bros had floating coins in bonus levels, but SMB even put them high up in the sky, and that's now a very common thing in platform games.

I imagine floating platform lifts could be explained by wires though. As a kid I always thought of them as some kind of mechanical elevator device, though simplified so that you don't see the wires (except for the scale lifts). Besides in Donkey Kong they do have visible wires. But the Mario series has long since discarded that and lifts are now generally always floating, since everyone expects things to float in platform games anyway nowadays.



Oh and BTW, I should have said that the destroying angel makes you permanently a ghost, not literally one. A teresa is obviously also literally a ghost, not figuratively.

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Re: Super Mario Bros.: Why all the floating money?

Post by tepples » Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:32 pm

Pokun wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:30 am
The main problem I have with Nikku's argument is that he says coins are as large as Mario's head, which I don't believe. That's just how they are represented in the game.
Case in point: In DiC's animated series adaptations of SMB series, the coins aren't quite that big. At least the coins are a little smaller in the Atarisoft port of Mario Bros. to Apple II and in Sammy's Vice: Project Doom.
Pokun wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:30 am
I can't explain the floating coins though. There is no in-universe explanation for it at all, as much as there is no in-universe explanation for the floating blocks. Both are just game mechanics that made sense at one point and continued into SMB where it stopped making sense but was left in anyway.
Which leads to why I asked this in the first place: Over the past couple weeks, I've been planning an original platformer with collectible coins. The object is to collect all 100 coins, and in the process the player will spend coins to buy mobility upgrades to reach more coins. Except unlike in SMB, these coins aren't faceless interchangeable pickups. Each coin has a unique message on it.

The one thing I don't want to do is make a design decision just because SMB standardized it. I'd like to reason everything from first principles.
  1. I plan to make the coins smaller, 8 pixels across like in Vice: big enough to see, small enough to not be OMG XBOX HUEG. For comparison, the player character is 24 pixels tall, as in Mario Bros. and Balloon Fight. I'm also (deliberately) exaggerating the character's head to make eyes visible. I intend for it to be clear that these are just represented that way.
  2. They spin for a gameplay reason. Some coins have preconditions before they can be collected. If a coin can't be collected, it'll stop spinning when touched, and the player can step up to it and press a button to read the clue on the back.
  3. For the same reason, I'm not planning to make them float high in the sky, as the player won't be able to stop in front to read them.
I've been sharing the details on one homebrew-related Discord server. I don't want to spill too many beans here too soon so as not to overhype things in case I end up abandoning the project.
Pokun wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:30 am
I imagine floating platform lifts could be explained by wires though.
This is canon in at least SMB3.
Pokun wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:30 am
Oh and BTW, I should have said that the destroying angel makes you permanently a ghost, not literally one. A teresa is obviously also literally a ghost, not figuratively.
I have questions about Boo/Teresa, Casper "the Friendly Ghost" McFadden, and other spirit creatures, which I'll save for another topic.

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Re: Super Mario Bros.: Why all the floating money?

Post by Nikku4211 » Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:06 pm

Pokun wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:30 am
Oh and BTW, I should have said that the destroying angel makes you permanently a ghost, not literally one. A teresa is obviously also literally a ghost, not figuratively.
If I can no-clip through everything I'm not sure I would want to go back to human life.

Also, how would we be able to tell what is just the way that it's represented to us versus how it actually is in-universe? For all we know, Bowser could just be a loan shark represented as a weird turtle dragon thing, and Peach could actually just be Mario's 'happiness' personified.
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Re: Super Mario Bros.: Why all the floating money?

Post by tepples » Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:18 pm

Nikku4211 wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:06 pm
If I can no-clip through everything I'm not sure I would want to go back to human life.
Depends on two things. One is under what conditions a dead person turns into a ghost in your continuity. In ours, death appears to be final from all physical evidence. When Mario dies, on the other hand, he restarts from the last checkpoint if he has lives left. (I remember watching a fan-made web cartoon where Mario can't cross a pit until he grabs a whole bunch of extra lives and slowly fills the pit with corpses to be able to cross it. After extracting Peach from Bowser's castle, he goes on to have a normal life, be a family man, grow old, and die. And then he restarts from a checkpoint. NOT CANON. I can't seem to dig it up now.) The other is the limits of a ghost's powers. Pursuant to Sanderson's second law of SF writing, limits are most effective than powers at helping to define the conflicts that make up a story. (And that's what I'd like to bring up in another topic.)
Nikku4211 wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:06 pm
Also, how would we be able to tell what is just the way that it's represented to us versus how it actually is in-universe?
Appearances in licensed non-game media are one. Google Image Search for mario holding mushroom, for example, shows a Super Mushroom noticeably smaller than Mario's head. Likewise, The Super Mario Bros. Super Show! and The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3 are how I know coins aren't really as big as they appear in the games.

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Re: Super Mario Bros.: Why all the floating money?

Post by Nikku4211 » Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:03 pm

tepples wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:18 pm
Nikku4211 wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:06 pm
If I can no-clip through everything I'm not sure I would want to go back to human life.
Depends on two things. One is under what conditions a dead person turns into a ghost in your continuity. In ours, death appears to be final from all physical evidence. When Mario dies, on the other hand, he restarts from the last checkpoint if he has lives left. (I remember watching a fan-made web cartoon where Mario can't cross a pit until he grabs a whole bunch of extra lives and slowly fills the pit with corpses to be able to cross it. After extracting Peach from Bowser's castle, he goes on to have a normal life, be a family man, grow old, and die. And then he restarts from a checkpoint. NOT CANON. I can't seem to dig it up now.) The other is the limits of a ghost's powers. Pursuant to Sanderson's second law of SF writing, limits are most effective than powers at helping to define the conflicts that make up a story. (And that's what I'd like to bring up in another topic.)
Of course ghosts don't exist in real life. If they did, death would have much less meaning than it does in real life. Even if what ghosts can do is limited, usually, in many fictional universes where they exist, even if they're different, both being a human and being a yokai/spirit/ghost have pros and cons.

Honestly, when playing Mario games, I actually was never sure if Boos were ever another species at one point that's already dead, or if they were always Boos from beginning to end. I probably won't take Paper Mario games into account, as they could have a different continuity from regular Mario games.
tepples wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:18 pm
Nikku4211 wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:06 pm
Also, how would we be able to tell what is just the way that it's represented to us versus how it actually is in-universe?
Appearances in licensed non-game media are one. Google Image Search for mario holding mushroom, for example, shows a Super Mushroom noticeably smaller than Mario's head. Likewise, The Super Mario Bros. Super Show! and The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3 are how I know coins aren't really as big as they appear in the games.
Looking at those results, the proportion of the mushroom to Mario's head is actually inconsistent. Sometimes, it's as big as his head, sometimes, it's smaller.

Licenced media can be inconsistent, too. For example, in the Super Mario Bros. Super Show, the Mario Bros. are actually from Brooklyn, New York, rather than being raised in the Kinoko Kingdom since they were babies like what was established in Yoshi's Island, the hit sequel to Super Mario World.
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Re: Super Mario Bros.: Why all the floating money?

Post by Pokun » Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:20 am

tepples wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:32 pm
[*]I plan to make the coins smaller, 8 pixels across like in Vice: big enough to see, small enough to not be OMG XBOX HUEG. For comparison, the player character is 24 pixels tall, as in Mario Bros. and Balloon Fight. I'm also (deliberately) exaggerating the character's head to make eyes visible. I intend for it to be clear that these are just represented that way.
Yeah Vice is a good example of using oversized coins that doesn't actually represents their real size. They are smaller than in Mario games but still as large as a head. A realistic size would make it hard to make out a coin, so it makes much more sense to make a large coin even in a game that uses a realistic setting like Vice.
Using a chibi art-style is also a common tool in games with a low resolution (and often even when not) without a worry of what's anatomically correct.

tepples wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:32 pm
Pokun wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:30 am
I imagine floating platform lifts could be explained by wires though.
This is canon in at least SMB3.
Are you thinking about the lifts on rails? Both SMB1 and SMB3 has lifts with and without wires, and this continues in later Mario games.
I'm not entirely sure that even modern games, that depicts things more like they are supposed to be (by having actually floating blocks etc), are really depicting things how they are or if it's just a way to simplify things just like in the older games. For example Super Mario 64 also have rails, but they are just dots floating in the air. Also there are those pairs of checkred platforms that cycles around endlessly (there is a set to the left of the very first bridge in the first level). These seems to have some mechanical thing installed in the wall, but it doesn't appear to be connected to the platforms, as they float.

Nikku4211 wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:03 pm
Of course ghosts don't exist in real life. If they did, death would have much less meaning than it does in real life.
It's the other way around. Death has much meaning in real life because we can't prove that ghosts doesn't exist and because we have no way to know what waits the other side of Styx.

Nikku4211 wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:03 pm
Honestly, when playing Mario games, I actually was never sure if Boos were ever another species at one point that's already dead, or if they were always Boos from beginning to end. I probably won't take Paper Mario games into account, as they could have a different continuity from regular Mario games.
My interpretation is that they are just lingering spirits (any species) just like ghosts in other work. They could have some reason they can't or don't want to leave the world of the living, and therefore stays and wrecks havoc. There are other variants of ghosts than the boos though and they often represent a particular species. There are dinosaur ghosts in SMW (I forgot their name), fishing boo is a lakitu ghost and there are gargantua blargg ghosts in Yoshi Island.
Hmm... thinking about it, that would make Professor E. Gadd pretty cruel since he collects them and locks them into paintings rather than exorcising them.

Nikku4211 wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:03 pm
tepples wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:18 pm
Nikku4211 wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:06 pm
Also, how would we be able to tell what is just the way that it's represented to us versus how it actually is in-universe?
Appearances in licensed non-game media are one. Google Image Search for mario holding mushroom, for example, shows a Super Mushroom noticeably smaller than Mario's head. Likewise, The Super Mario Bros. Super Show! and The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3 are how I know coins aren't really as big as they appear in the games.
Looking at those results, the proportion of the mushroom to Mario's head is actually inconsistent. Sometimes, it's as big as his head, sometimes, it's smaller.

Licenced media can be inconsistent, too. For example, in the Super Mario Bros. Super Show, the Mario Bros. are actually from Brooklyn, New York, rather than being raised in the Kinoko Kingdom since they were babies like what was established in Yoshi's Island, the hit sequel to Super Mario World.
Yes licensed media and even the games are very inconsistent. That's the main problem with trying to make sense of the Mario games. Personally I just use common sense, knowledge of other fiction and a lot of imagination. I have no proof, it's all just speculation and educated guesses. I don't give works such as the super show or the Valiant Comics much credit, licensed or not. Some of them makes sense, like the fact that coins aren't really supposed to be oversized, while I really doubt other things such as the fact that just touching a mushroom or star is enough to activate its powers (mushrooms should be consumed if they are edible, not just touched and thrown away). I also always never understood that about Mario being from Brooklyn as it was never a thing in any game by Nintendo. It was exclusively American media that pressed this AFAIK. The manual for the US version of Sim City for SNES mentions Mario being in Brooklyn (which is why Bowser can't find him in the Tokyo scenario where he appears). It's a joke but it's not mentioned at all in the Japanese manual as far as I can see, so it was probably made up by the localization team.

Games are inconsistent as there are situations where mushrooms are visibly eaten (like in the Mario RPG games), and in other games mushrooms (poisonous or not) are thrown in the face and still has effect. On the boxart of SMB1, Mario seems to gain the powers of the mushroom by just holding it.

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Re: Super Mario Bros.: Why all the floating money?

Post by tepples » Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:49 am

Pokun wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:20 am
Death has much meaning in real life because we can't prove that ghosts doesn't exist and because we have no way to know what waits the other side of Styx.
It could be that on the other side of Styx is "Kilroy was here".
Pokun wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:20 am
There are dinosaur ghosts in SMW (I forgot their name), fishing boo is a lakitu ghost and there are gargantua blargg ghosts in Yoshi Island.
For the record, the dinosaur ghost is Eerie.
Pokun wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:20 am
Hmm... thinking about it, that would make Professor E. Gadd pretty cruel since he collects them and locks them into paintings rather than exorcising them.
(I haven't played any Luigi's Mansion games, but...) You sure he's not just putting ghosts into environments where they can be kept safe? Compare portraits in Hogwarts, the Ghostbusters' containment facility, or a Poké Ball, or any competent zoo (unless you're with PETA).

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Re: Super Mario Bros.: Why all the floating money?

Post by Pokun » Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:04 am

Kilroy? Ah yes of course that's probably the only thing that's certain.


Ah Eerie it was. I could only remember the Swedish name which was something like ghosty if you translate it back to English. The original name teresaurus is pretty clever I think.


No I'm not sure if the paintings are like prisons or not for the ghosts. It doesn't seem to harm them, nor does it seem that they really suffer in there (their concept of time isn't anything like the living's so even 100 years is probably not a lot), but they do seem to dislike it and are happy to be free. Then again that may only be so that they can cause mischief again, which they do. The boo's explicitly state that they fear the ghost-catching machine Obacuum/Poltergust-3000. But they appear to be quite evil, and seems to deserve being locked into a painting anyway. Luigi who is highly frightened by ghosts is just delighted to see them turned into paintings, which is done by a separate machine after catching them in a comical and kind of cartoon-style-violent process.
Paintings generally doesn't seem to animate like the Hogwarts ones do, but, without spoiling anything in Luigi's Mansion, I can say that there seems to be animated types as well.
Last edited by Pokun on Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Mario Bros.: Why all the floating money?

Post by Nikku4211 » Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:37 pm

Pokun wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:20 am
A realistic size would make it hard to make out a coin, so it makes much more sense to make a large coin even in a game that uses a realistic setting like Vice.
Using a chibi art-style is also a common tool in games with a low resolution (and often even when not) without a worry of what's anatomically correct.
Yeah, I think chibi art-styles in games are still around for the same reason coins are usually depicted as big.
Pokun wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:20 am
Nikku4211 wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:03 pm
Of course ghosts don't exist in real life. If they did, death would have much less meaning than it does in real life.
It's the other way around. Death has much meaning in real life because we can't prove that ghosts doesn't exist and because we have no way to know what waits the other side of Styx.
Well, you see, you would have a way to know what happens when you die.

I'll give you some time to think about how, as I don't want people to think I actually am asking anyone else to do it, but doing so would not make it clear to anyone else what is happening.

If ghosts actually did exist, it makes death less meaningful because our conscience would still exist after death and we can still think and directly affect the world.

If ghosts don't exist at all, that means our conscience would cease to exist during death, and we will no longer exist anymore at all. The suspense of finding out whether or not there is an afterlife is not as important as actually making decisions, which would be best done under the assumption that death = eternal oblivion.
Pokun wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:20 am
Nikku4211 wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:03 pm
Honestly, when playing Mario games, I actually was never sure if Boos were ever another species at one point that's already dead, or if they were always Boos from beginning to end. I probably won't take Paper Mario games into account, as they could have a different continuity from regular Mario games.
My interpretation is that they are just lingering spirits (any species) just like ghosts in other work. They could have some reason they can't or don't want to leave the world of the living, and therefore stays and wrecks havoc. There are other variants of ghosts than the boos though and they often represent a particular species. There are dinosaur ghosts in SMW (I forgot their name), fishing boo is a lakitu ghost and there are gargantua blargg ghosts in Yoshi Island.
Hmm... thinking about it, that would make Professor E. Gadd pretty cruel since he collects them and locks them into paintings rather than exorcising them.
Nice interpretation m8. Then again, why would you want to leave the world of the living? No one's life is ever fully fulfilled 100%. If hell exists, no one would want to go to it.

I don't know why you'd care about the rights of ghosts but okay.

I can't believe I actually said ghost rights.
Pokun wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:20 am
Yes licensed media and even the games are very inconsistent. That's the main problem with trying to make sense of the Mario games. Personally I just use common sense, knowledge of other fiction and a lot of imagination.
:lol: :lol: :lol: Like common sense has any place in the Mario world.
Pokun wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:20 am
I also always never understood that about Mario being from Brooklyn as it was never a thing in any game by Nintendo. It was exclusively American media that pressed this AFAIK.
Mario was named after the late Mario Segale, a landlord who owned a house Nintendo of America employees were renting. Take that into account, and it makes more sense(though they got the state different).
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Re: Super Mario Bros.: Why all the floating money?

Post by M_Tee » Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:53 pm

tepples wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:34 am
(And does it cost 100 coins in medical bills to revive a fainted Mario?)
In Project Blue, it costs 100 credits for a charge from the defribillator.

Early draft of the manual implied that it was 100 credits to bribe a guard to release you as you were being carried back to the lab off-screen (explaining the invisible checkpoint you'd respawn at).
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Re: Super Mario Bros.: Why all the floating money?

Post by M_Tee » Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:01 pm

As for floating blocks and platforms (in games in general), later indie games have a tendency to draw some form of non-solid background graphic supporting them (like a hill or building), indicating that the platform is extending from the background into the player's plane.

Likewise, it could be assumed that since either nothing (or very intentional selection of objects) is rendered between the gameplay plane and the camera, then floating blocks are extensions backward from an unrendered structure in front of the gameplay plane.

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