Loss of interest for computer scinence, anyone else ?

You can talk about almost anything that you want to on this board.

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Nikku4211
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:28 pm
Location: Bronx, New York
Contact:

Re: Loss of interest for computer scinence, anyone else ?

Post by Nikku4211 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:15 am

Bregalad wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:57 pm
I've been into the SNES hardware since I was a 4 year old in 2007
Wow and I though I was among the younger folks there ! But I'm almost twice as old as you are :)
Yeah, I just became an adult right before this year. owo
Bregalad wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:57 pm
I didn't understand your whole post but apparently like me your center(s) of interest seems to rotate every semester or so. That's actually almost an handicaping feature for those of us who work like that... Because no matter which center of interest we base our career on, it'll eventually bore us.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
Bregalad wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:57 pm
You're the second (after Tokumaru) mentionning drawing. I had a time when I was interested in that but I completely dropped the idea, why not give it a little revival ! The issue with art (of any kind) is that either you're a genius and your art will eventually be known, or it's just a complete waste of time because it won't ever be used. I know it sucks but that's the way the world we're living in works.
Yeah, art takes a lot of practise. I started to take art seriously almost 5 years ago when I began to learn ways to structure and simplify anatomy for drawing purposes.

Even after all of that work, I'm still not that well known. Then again, I don't really post my art in social media sites like Twitter because I'm generally not a big fan of their communities, but I guess you've got to do what you've got to do to be seen. I'm just a dude with a dirty little website. I do occasionally post my art in a few Discords.

Then again, art is actually one of those things I haven't 'gotten over', same with anime(which actually has quite a connection to the very reason I draw, lol). I'm still grateful I have little over 300 subscribers at all, most of whomst are interested in the things I do.
Drag wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:24 pm
About modern platforms, don't be so quick to write them off as limitless and therefore boring. If you just want to write a game, you're looking at several game engines you can use, like Game Maker, Clickteam Fusion, Godot, etc, and all of those come with their own limitations that you can work within (and surpass).
Yeah, I know about those game engines. I guess at that point, most of the limitations you'd be dealing with are those of the engines themselves, and not the systems your game supports. It's still not that interesting to me, because my interests tend to be extremely specific.
Drag wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:24 pm
The random layman may not be aware of why your PC game is impressive, but the community surrounding the development environment you chose will know. This is the exact thing that happens among retro enthusiasts as well. At the end of the day, you'll also wind up with a game that doesn't require hobbyist hardware to run (like an old video game console, flash cart, FPGA-based solution, etc), but rather a regular PC.
Yeah, there are many niches, each with their own community.

Also, technically, people can play your hobbyist retro homebrew game in an emulator if your game is for a widely emulated system, so you can attract them if you put your game on Steam or Itch.io and bundle it with an emulator that is compatible with your game and a script that automatically runs the emulator with the game when you run it from Steam. Basically similar to what is done with Steam and GOG releases of old DOS games.
Drag wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:24 pm
I understand though, the allure is sometimes working with specialized hardware and seeing something you made displayed on a TV, running on a device that is neither a computer nor a mobile device. That's part of being a hobbyist, and nothing will replace it, but also don't wall yourself off from checking the modern stuff out too. :P
Eh, for me, it's not really walling myself from, and more like simply not enjoying the taste of development for it.

I did dabble in development for PCs a couple of times, not only with the PowerPoint games I made when I was a kid, but also from programming a few unfinished abandoned games in Visual Basic .NET, like an RPG based on my old school friend's private animation series made in Go!Animate, and a rather clunky sidescroller where you move in tiles.

I was 10-12 when I was using Visual Basic .NET, though.
I have an ASD, so empathy is not natural for me. If I hurt you, I apologise.

User avatar
Wermish
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:33 am
Location: In the Bowels of the Earth

Re: Loss of interest for computer scinence, anyone else ?

Post by Wermish » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:43 pm

I'm also in my 30s, and I'm doing a CS degree. Coming up to final exams and I'm so glad that it will be over soon (well, apart from final project). This past year has all been about 'Software Engineering' as it's called. Design Patterns, SOLID principles, jargon, trends...I'm not saying any of that is worthless, not at all, but it's not WHY I got into programming. It's just so bland, and so far removed from the hardware. All libraries and frameworks, with 'cool' names and logos. We've had two true CS modules over the past two years: one was about the mathmatical foundations of CS and the other was about computer organisation and architecture. Both were great.

I don't want to be an AGILE developer, eating a Hamcrest sandwich while wearing my Spring Boots. I want to be like my heroes of the DOS era and before, wearing a wizard's hat and eating a cheese toastie. I'm not saying that modern developments in computing aren't fascinating, I just don't want the modern CULTURE...

..hence why I'm here!

P.S. Another reason why I'm here is that I managed to convince my supervisor to let me make a NES game as part of my final project. Everyone else is doing stuff like "Scatter-resonated Exoguff Fungible Beans for Expressive Systems" or whatever.

Do what you want to do/need to do ofc. I was a cleaner while teaching myself the CS required to start the course. Wasn't a nice job, but I didn't have to pretend to my colleagues that I'm happy and trendy and give a damn about their hollow, uncritical opinions.

User avatar
Ben Boldt
Posts: 791
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:27 pm
Location: Minnesota, USA

Re: Loss of interest for computer scinence, anyone else ?

Post by Ben Boldt » Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:58 pm

Wermish wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:43 pm
I don't want to be an AGILE developer, eating a Hamcrest sandwich while wearing my Spring Boots. I want to be like my heroes of the DOS era and before, wearing a wizard's hat and eating a cheese toastie. I'm not saying that modern developments in computing aren't fascinating, I just don't want the modern CULTURE...

..hence why I'm here!
To me, that's all part of the difference between software and firmware. I think NES/Famicom basically run firmware (my opinion). Are you a Bill Gates or a Steve Wozniac? You might find yourself gravitate more towards firmware if you rather work in a lab than an office cubicle, etc.

soniccd123
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:01 pm

Re: Loss of interest for computer scinence, anyone else ?

Post by soniccd123 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:38 pm

I come from a completelly diferent area, but can understand your feeling, sometimes our work life become devoid of challenge and with so, a endless cycle of repeating patterns, this happens even in fields normally challenging and creative.

I do not work professionally with programming or hardware, I'm actually in the health care field, it can be very challenging but it is not really creative, you're suposed to memorize things and know how to use them more than to really solve problems in a creative way. That's totally understandable actually as, when working with human lifes, you are suposed to try and do things that are most certain to work, the situations were you do something crazy diferent that you created are rare, and the ones that you can prove worked are even rarer.

Even so, I won't quit the field just, I have plans to try new things eventually, but I'm not even 30 yet. What I try to do is to separate my work life from my personal hobbys. A good measure is to understand what you really love to do and make sure that you're able to do this when you can and make this a goal even though this thing is not something commercially or professionally viable.

Work can be really frustrating sometimes, more so when you don't have a goal. I know that tomorrow I need to go back and see patients, and this will repeat forever, because its not like people are going to stop getting sick. Some my colleages come everyday because they love to help, some come because they love the challenge, some come because they feel responsible (and they are). I feel these things too, but what really make me go forward is because, by the end of the day, I can get home and do and enjoy a lot of things I really love. This work may not be the perfect, but for now, it gives me what I need to enjoy life.

On a side note, I love baremetal programming and hardware development, I found that working with MCUs can be highly rewarding, just like working with vintage computers and consoles. One can get as close as he wants to the hardware and it is highly rewarding because there is a lot more to it than just software and games, building small machines, automating things for your home, creating adapters for old hardware and so on, the possibilities are really nice. There is a lot of talk about Arduino, but that is a more simplistic way to aproach, very much focused in learning, but there is a lot more to it if you really try to dive in the hardware and understand how it works. No high level needed, just good old assembly and programming manuals.

User avatar
Wermish
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:33 am
Location: In the Bowels of the Earth

Re: Loss of interest for computer scinence, anyone else ?

Post by Wermish » Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:54 am

Ben Boldt wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:58 pm
To me, that's all part of the difference between software and firmware. I think NES/Famicom basically run firmware (my opinion). Are you a Bill Gates or a Steve Wozniac? You might find yourself gravitate more towards firmware if you rather work in a lab than an office cubicle, etc.
This is direction I'm looking to go in, writing firmware for embedded systems etc...slowly but surely, one byte of learning at a time.
soniccd123 wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:38 pm
On a side note, I love baremetal programming and hardware development, I found that working with MCUs can be highly rewarding, just like working with vintage computers and consoles. One can get as close as he wants to the hardware and it is highly rewarding because there is a lot more to it than just software and games, building small machines, automating things for your home, creating adapters for old hardware and so on, the possibilities are really nice. There is a lot of talk about Arduino, but that is a more simplistic way to aproach, very much focused in learning, but there is a lot more to it if you really try to dive in the hardware and understand how it works. No high level needed, just good old assembly and programming manuals.
This is what I'm doing, or starting to do, and it's keeping my interest in CS alive. I imagine you're surrounded by cool robots, which cater to your every whim! That's what I would have...but unless I make my robots out of bean tins, with lemons and wires for batteries, I'm not gonna be there anytime soon.

Actually that's got me thinking how I would build a robot without spending any money.

User avatar
Bregalad
Posts: 8023
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:49 pm
Location: Chexbres, VD, Switzerland

Re: Loss of interest for computer scinence, anyone else ?

Post by Bregalad » Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:27 am

Ben Boldt wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:58 pm
To me, that's all part of the difference between software and firmware. I think NES/Famicom basically run firmware (my opinion). Are you a Bill Gates or a Steve Wozniac? You might find yourself gravitate more towards firmware if you rather work in a lab than an office cubicle, etc.
I'm doing firmware development as a job, and it's boring as hell, it has not much in common with NES/Famicom development. The only common point is the 32kb ROM size limit.

The software we develop is supposed to come in everyone's smartphones in the coming years, but yet I do not see how this is any useful for humanity in any way. Apparently my colleages do...
Useless, lumbering half-wits don't scare us.

User avatar
Wermish
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:33 am
Location: In the Bowels of the Earth

Re: Loss of interest for computer scinence, anyone else ?

Post by Wermish » Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:29 am

Bregalad wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:27 am
I'm doing firmware development as a job, and it's boring as hell, it has not much in common with NES/Famicom development. The only common point is the 32kb ROM size limit.

The software we develop is supposed to come in everyone's smartphones in the coming years, but yet I do not see how this is any useful for humanity in any way. Apparently my colleages do...
Ha...ha...ah :( , that's interesting but sorry to hear that. I suppose I have a naive, romantic view, as if it's a magical land of byte-level wizardry.

Well thank goodness you're here then at least. Being here and being able to do some NES dev for a project has saved me from going mad.

User avatar
Ben Boldt
Posts: 791
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:27 pm
Location: Minnesota, USA

Re: Loss of interest for computer scinence, anyone else ?

Post by Ben Boldt » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:42 am

Bregalad wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:27 am
I'm doing firmware development as a job, and it's boring as hell, it has not much in common with NES/Famicom development. The only common point is the 32kb ROM size limit.

The software we develop is supposed to come in everyone's smartphones in the coming years, but yet I do not see how this is any useful for humanity in any way. Apparently my colleages do...
What do you expect though? Stuff that's fun to do, you don't get paid. You look at people working at a science museum or feeding animals at the zoo, those are usually volunteers or people making minimum wage. Since people 'like' to do those things, they'll do it for free and nobody can make a living doing that cool job unfortunately.

Some technical areas have the potential of being so unapproachable to almost everyone that only a few people can do it, and once you can do it it's easy and maybe fun. But ultimately you are still doing your job for someone else and you can't actually have that feeling of ownership and responsibility with a true job where you make money. You don't decide when to start and end a project. Many of us may have liked Super Mario Bros. 3 to never end, keep poking at it forever, but Nintendo had to sell that and move on. It is when you come home and you choose your own projects and hobbies, that is where you own it and decide how long you want to work on it and are not selling it away. The only way for your job to have that kind of feeling is to actually be your own boss/entrepreneur. But with that comes great risk and stresses involved in that. Always you have to 'give away your baby' if you want to make money from it.

I think it is important not to try to completely merge 'making a living' with 'having pleasure'. If you spend a boring day in the office, you can make the money needed to have fun and relax when you come home. You can do whatever you want when you come home, you can make a Nintendo game, or go on a bike ride, or climb a mountain, watch porn, whatever fits your fancy, and it's nobody else's business. That's where you feel good in life, not while you're at work cranking in the money. Separating work and life is as important as balancing them.

Drag
Posts: 1341
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:57 pm
Contact:

Re: Loss of interest for computer scinence, anyone else ?

Post by Drag » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:48 am

I expect and demand complete and total euphoria stemming from designing, writing, completing, and using anything I make, contribute to, or reverse engineer using any programming language at any time for any purpose forever.

...but since that's not a realistic expectation, I settle for getting a paycheck and health insurance from employment at a company writing AV integration programs for offices and impractically large houses. By the way, do you need a touch panel on the wall for turning your lights and TV on and off? What about a small theater in your basement? I see you have a rather sizable amount of wealth in your bank account... 👀

But the more I hear about the video game industry, the more it sounds like a complete and total nightmare, so I have this perpetual internal struggle between wanting to work on video games for a living and also wanting something stable that won't make me hate life, but also not having the energy/discipline necessary to work on stuff when I'm off from work, etc.

If I did work in the VG industry, I figured I'd maintain the game engines rather than write the games themselves, since that seems like it's more stable and less like what starry-eyed hopefuls are going to be flocking to right out of college. :P

User avatar
tokumaru
Posts: 12054
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:43 pm
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

Re: Loss of interest for computer scinence, anyone else ?

Post by tokumaru » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:54 am

Ben Boldt wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:42 am
If you spend a boring day in the office, you can make the money needed to have fun and relax when you come home. You can do whatever you want when you come home, you can make a Nintendo game, or go on a bike ride, or climb a mountain, watch porn, whatever fits your fancy, and it's nobody else's business. That's where you feel good in life, not while you're at work cranking in the money. Separating work and life is as important as balancing them.
And do you think it's fair that during most of your life you're generating money for someone else without getting any enjoyment or satisfaction out of it? You're supposed to be asleep for 1/3 of the day. Another 1/3 is supposed to be work, but due the commute, bureaucracy and breaks for physiological needs, it ends up being much more. The little bit that's left is what's supposed to be your "fun time", but you still have chores around the house, kids to take care of... That's... a pretty miserable life if you don't enjoy what you do at work at least a bit.

User avatar
Ben Boldt
Posts: 791
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:27 pm
Location: Minnesota, USA

Re: Loss of interest for computer scinence, anyone else ?

Post by Ben Boldt » Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:24 pm

I think it is fair to work for someone else and for them to make the profits. They are the ones taking the risk that way. They have to lose sleep and worry about the business staying afloat, jump off a bridge if things go wrong, etc. We can just go home at the end of the day without a care in the world and find a new job somewhere else if that company dries up. The cost of that kind of freedom is that you don't get the profits... You have to ask, how does all that money make up for all that worrying, how does that come out ahead? The alternative is to run your own business and then you do get all the profits and all the risk. It is totally your choice, you can do it either way of your choosing and I think that's fair. I guess another alternative is to live in a communist country. That's an option too but we probably won't accommodate that here in USA hopefully.

There is always a tradeoff, and you have to find what level of freedom and responsibility is right for you, then just go get it.

User avatar
tokumaru
Posts: 12054
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:43 pm
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

Re: Loss of interest for computer scinence, anyone else ?

Post by tokumaru » Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:56 pm

My point wasn't so much about "generating profit for someone else", but about "getting any enjoyment at all out of the thing you spend most of your life doing". I mean, if you are gonna dedicate most of your life doing something other people tell you to do (since you're not willing to take the risk of running your own company), at least try to find something that will make you feel good in some way, otherwise your life can be pretty miserable.

User avatar
nesrocks
Posts: 485
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:40 pm
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
Contact:

Re: Loss of interest for computer scinence, anyone else ?

Post by nesrocks » Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:30 pm

tokumaru wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:54 am
And do you think it's fair that during most of your life you're generating money for someone else
I never understood this mentality. It isn't slavery. You choose to trade time for money. You can quit the job and find another. You can hire someone else to work for you (if it's so good to be the boss, then you should try it). It's a free world...
https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios <- Follow me on twitter! Thanks!

User avatar
tokumaru
Posts: 12054
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:43 pm
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

Re: Loss of interest for computer scinence, anyone else ?

Post by tokumaru » Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:45 pm

You're all focusing on the wrong thing... I never said that working for someone else is a bad thing! An employer-employee relationship can certainly be mutually beneficial. What I meant is that since you're doing something that mostly serves the interests of someone else, you'll be happier if you can get something out of it for yourself besides the money.

I didn't mean that your boss profiting from your work isn't fair, what isn't fair is spending most of your life hating what you do, so I consider it important to work on things that will make me feel good.

Working on something you hate just to get the money you need in order to continue living to do that thing is no way to live.

User avatar
Bregalad
Posts: 8023
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:49 pm
Location: Chexbres, VD, Switzerland

Re: Loss of interest for computer scinence, anyone else ?

Post by Bregalad » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:35 am

Well thank goodness you're here then at least. Being here and being able to do some NES dev for a project has saved me from going mad.
Haha, thanks and you're weclome. I'm mostly here because I like the nesdev folks and culture and all, but I haven't done actual nesdev since at least 4 years unfortunately.
Ben Boldt wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:42 am
What do you expect though? Stuff that's fun to do, you don't get paid. You look at people working at a science museum or feeding animals at the zoo, those are usually volunteers or people making minimum wage. Since people 'like' to do those things, they'll do it for free and nobody can make a living doing that cool job unfortunately.
Having gone the trouble to go through university and gotten a Master's degree (in 2014), I can expect to have an intellectually satisfying job. Yet I never got any.

Also there's no necessarly an anit-correlation to how interesting a job is and how much you're paid. Sure, you could think that if a job is interesting someone will agree to make it for a lower pay or free. Similarly, you might thing a job which is highly demanded would be better paid because there's less people on the market. Yet those "offer-and-demand" absolutly don't apply to wages, everywhere in the world healthcare personnel is lacking, and is absolutely not fun, so according to your measure it should be an amayzing paid. Yet it's poorly paid, and the wages never rose and even covid didn't make them rise ! On the other hand, people can have satysfying jobs designing useful infrastructure such as bridges, and being very well paid at the same time.

Actually salaries are only a kind of social status thing, and not really follow how interesing the job is nor how demanded it is.
The only way for your job to have that kind of feeling is to actually be your own boss/entrepreneur.
If you're an employee you're bound to the boss, but if you're the boss you're bound to a combination of the customer's expectations, the customer's expected expectations, and the inversters and other banks lending you money and wanting you to be profitable. It sounds even worse than being an employee I'd say.
I think it is important not to try to completely merge 'making a living' with 'having pleasure'. If you spend a boring day in the office, you can make the money needed to have fun and relax when you come home. [...] Separating work and life is as important as balancing them.
Actually that's pretty much what I always aimed to do but it has it's limit. If something is completely void of any sense or interest I simply can't stay focused or work on it at all. Other people can, but I cannot, because of who I am.

Also, to make things clear - I never considered nor aimed working in the video game industry. But ny interest in Nesdev had a very strong influence on my career path.
The alternative is to run your own business and then you do get all the profits and all the risk.
Contrary to what you seem to be thinking it's not realistic for anybody to run their own business. If you are the type of guy who is not good to communicate with people, or who lack certain psychological qualities such as being good with negotiation or simply showing off, it's not even worth trying. You'll need to find customers (or hire someone who do) and get investors. I know for sure I would be completely incapable of something like that, and no amount of learning can offset something you naturally lack.
You're all focusing on the wrong thing... I never said that working for someone else is a bad thing! An employer-employee relationship can certainly be mutually beneficial. What I meant is that since you're doing something that mostly serves the interests of someone else, you'll be happier if you can get something out of it for yourself besides the money.
Absolutely. Especially after doing studies and getting a Master's degree.
Being a worker an hating your job is somehow "fine" because you're not supposed to do an interesting job, but being an engineer and hating your job is definitely wrong somehow.
Useless, lumbering half-wits don't scare us.

Post Reply