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 Post subject: Trolling Famicompo
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 7:55 pm 
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In general, what makes a Famicompo entry a "troll entry"?


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 Post subject: Re: NSFPlay 2.3
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 8:20 pm 
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Straight, poor fidelity DPCM rips of (usually) anime themes, activating every expansion but using just DPCM, composing a few bars and then infinitely droning. Doggtales.


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 Post subject: Re: Trolling Famicompo
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 9:50 pm 
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Submitted to annoy, for the troll's amusement. Just like any other troll activity.


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 Post subject: Re: Trolling Famicompo
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 10:30 pm 
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"poor fidelity DPCM rips of (usually) anime themes": I'm guilty. I converted "Max 300" (a DDR song) to an NES ROM back in 2004 as a proof of concept; I didn't try entering it in anything. (It runs on my PowerPak with minor video glitches.) Hopefully my more honest cover of "Maxx Unlimited" (ogg, s3m) should make up for that. But if someone were to chop up a tune into short pieces and sequence them like a 1-channel MOD, would that be trolling too? Compare the theme songs of Space Racer and Turbo Cup (mp3 here).

"composing a few bars and then infinitely droning": If someone programmed an algorithmic composer that could make a passable 3-minute piece of music using only the 2A03 channels and entered a 255-song NSF using each track number as a seed into the composer's PRNG, would that be trolling too?

Doggtales is just "this video contains" as an NSF. But then "this video contains" is a YouTube Poop meme, and YouTube Poop originated in trolling.


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 Post subject: Re: Trolling Famicompo
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 9:18 am 
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Speaking of Doggtales, I wonder if it would be possible to make a "singing" NES song, preferably to the extent of not halting the CPU, as would be the case with 7-bit samples. Kinda like that one Konami arcade beat-em-up where every song sounded like a cheesy Saturday morning cartoon intro. I mean granted, it's using possibly custom built hardware to do all that, but what if there was an infinite memory budget and an infinite financial budget to make an NES game?


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 Post subject: Re: Trolling Famicompo
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 9:46 am 
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OneCrudeDude wrote:
I wonder if it would be possible to make a "singing" NES song, preferably to the extent of not halting the CPU, as would be the case with 7-bit samples. Kinda like that one Konami arcade beat-em-up where every song sounded like a cheesy Saturday morning cartoon intro.

You were referring to Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, which was ported to NES without samples as TMNT II: The Arcade Game, correct?

Quote:
what if there was an infinite memory budget and an infinite financial budget to make an NES game?

It wouldn't even take that much extra hardware. It'd only take 1. lots of memory (cheap now), 2. bankable $C000-$DFFF, 3. a scanline counter to make up for the lack of APU DMC IRQ (because the APU's IRQ can do raster splits or sample playback, not both), and 4. the budget to produce such a game. A tiny boot EEPROM, a 128 KiB PRG RAM, a 32 KiB CHR RAM, and a big eMMC would suffice.


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 Post subject: Re: Trolling Famicompo
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 11:14 am 
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tepples wrote:
"composing a few bars and then infinitely droning": If someone programmed an algorithmic composer that could make a passable 3-minute piece of music using only the 2A03 channels and entered a 255-song NSF using each track number as a seed into the composer's PRNG, would that be trolling too?

I would so listen to that!


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 Post subject: Re: Trolling Famicompo
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 2:04 pm 
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Tepples, the appellation of troll entry is not an objective evaluation. It's an accusation of the author's ill intent and/or a subjective judgement that it lacks worth. It's no good to arbitrate rules for it, as trolls tend to thrive on the abuse of these kinds of rules. If you're having fun musing about it, though, please carry on.

Actually, cpow, I had sketched plans to write a procedural music entry for Famicompo 10, but I found myself more engaged by other projects so I didn't get around to it. I've still got a few pages of notes and C code lying around from it that I might put to use someday.

There was a famicompo entry a few years back that (possibly accidentally) gave some channels a different loop length than the rest, and the result actually sounded not bad. Not exactly procedural music, but the resulting combinations were good enough that I didn't mind listening for a long while. It was FCM7 Original 66, Adlib Inferno, I think.


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 Post subject: Re: Trolling Famicompo
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 4:20 pm 
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rainwarrior wrote:
the appellation of troll entry is not an objective evaluation. It's an accusation of the author's ill intent and/or a subjective judgement that it lacks worth.

I'm just trying to figure out how to avoid being officially accused of ill intent if I were to enter something experimental. A lot of times on Slashdot, I point out a corner case that some people haven't thought of, and I get accused of trolling. And even in the Dadaist anti-art that is YouTube Poop, there's often brilliant stuff that emerges from techniques that originated in trolling the audience.

rainwarrior wrote:
There was a famicompo entry a few years back that (possibly accidentally) gave some channels a different loop length than the rest, and the result actually sounded not bad.

That's been going on at least since Klax, whose tracks "Dance of the Fairies" and "Caverns of Cthulu" had at least one channel's loop length fail to line up yet fail in a pleasant way.

And there's another reason for procedural music. As the supply of distinct melodies becomes depleted, saying a robot did it (and having that actually be the case) may be the only remaining defense to the sort of accidental copyright infringement that George Harrison got in trouble for when he ended up recreating the hook of a Chiffons song in his own "My Sweet Lord".


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 Post subject: Re: Trolling Famicompo
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 4:30 pm 
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tepples wrote:
rainwarrior wrote:
A lot of times on Slashdot, I point out a corner case that some people haven't thought of, and I get accused of trolling.

The key is in the words "corner case": correct, but unappreciated.

I don't consider it trolling, but a corner case is akin to a sports match where the referee takes out some calipers and declares the ball "not out-of-bounds". Of course, half the fans will get angry, won't they?

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 Post subject: Re: Trolling Famicompo
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 5:13 pm 
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Quote:
I'm just trying to figure out how to avoid being officially accused of ill intent if I were to enter something experimental

I think the answer is easy. Is your post actually helpful to the person who asked, or is it solely a display of your knowledge on the subject? Apologies for a bit of a callout, but this is an example of a recent post that I'm quite sure was not helpful to the person who asked the question. I read that and thought all it did was make things less simple and understandable for the beginner. (Disclaimer: No, I did not read through your post history looking for a specific example. I ain't dat petty. I remembered that post offhand, because I remembered my reaction to it when it was first posted!)

I'm actually very, very prone to this myself, in a slightly different way. I make extraordinarily long posts covering all the corner cases I can think of precisely to avoid replies like the one linked. Which then is too much to read and still not helpful. But uh... I'm never surprised by that.

I think ccovell's analogy is perfect for the feeling of someone pointing out a corner case your post didn't cover. Which is why I go to such great lengths to prevent it, I suppose.

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 Post subject: Re: Trolling Famicompo
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 5:39 pm 
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No, the game I was talking about wasn't TMNT, it was yet another arcade only game that never got ported to anything. Conversely, it wasn't based on anything, a rarity for late 80's/early 90's Konami games. The first stage had lyrics like "Break out! Break out fighting!", if it helps. It had a forgettable name like Fighting Force or Violence Fight or something.

As for the definition of trolling, the general consensus on certain anonymous imageboards seems to define it as "pretending to be retarded" when you actually weren't. Is the song cacophonic? The joke's on them, it was simply pretending to be a bad song.


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 Post subject: Re: Trolling Famicompo
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 6:19 pm 
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OneCrudeDude wrote:
It had a forgettable name like Fighting Force or Violence Fight or something.

You talkin' about Violent Storm? You best remember the game you bust down a door to a medieval arcade center and wrestle the Road Warriors in front of half-naked incarcerated dames. 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Trolling Famicompo
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 6:29 pm 
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Kasumi wrote:
Apologies for a bit of a callout

Go ahead. Constructive criticism is welcome.

Quote:
but this is an example of a recent post that I'm quite sure was not helpful to the person who asked the question. I read that and thought all it did was make things less simple and understandable for the beginner.

I realized that, and that's why I wrapped it up and put the tl;dr part in.

Anyway, you all might have to wait a while for my procedural music because the 2014 compo multicart's ROM image is due soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Trolling Famicompo
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 6:56 pm 
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That's the game, Jedi, thanks! I wonder if an NES game could have music with "lyrics" like Violent Storm does.


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