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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 7:49 pm 
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lidnariq wrote:
The sunsoft 5B includes something that is identical to a YMZ284/294. (Rainwarrior has exhaustively tested)

This isn't the fetid pile of incorrectness that is the VRC7 vs the YM2413 as on the HFX4.


I see, I guess it's just a Gimmick to play it back with a real 5b


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 8:01 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 8:27 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 8:37 pm 
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;-)

I would still be really psyched to find out a way to come up with a schematic to connect those pins. It would make the Gimmick purchase worth it to me. Probably just need to buy a 3rd party cartridge slot after getting some help with the wiring schematic.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 9:36 pm 
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Well, the YMZ294's inputs are /WR, /CS, A0, Vdd, SO, Gnd, φM, 4/6, /IC, an eight-bit data bus, and /TEST. only SO is an output; everything else is a power supply or logic input.
The SS5B has a bunch more pins, but we can ignore all the digital outputs... tie SS PPU A10..A13 and SS PPU /RD high, connect data bus, SS R/W low (or to YMZ /WR) ... YMZ /CS to SS /ROMSEL, SS CPU A14 high, SS CPU A13 to YMZ A0, SS M2 to YMZ φM... No promises it'd work, 't's just an educated guess.


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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 12:32 am 
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I still need to do some work to characterize the 5B's audio amplifier response. While the behaviour of the chip matches the YM2149* perfectly, as far as I've tested it, the actual amplification is separate and unique to the 5B. In particular, I believe it has a hard clipping behaviour when the amplitude of the input signals gets loud enough. I doubt the TNS boards make any attempt to recreate this, from what I know about them.

* The YMZ294 is just a reduced-pin variant of the YM2149, from what I understand. I've never worked with one directly.


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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 7:34 am 
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jsr wrote:
YMZ294 are available from ebay and aren't expensive, that's the easiest way to get 5B expansion audio working.


I noticed that they're all from the same seller: utsource. And they're located in China. Have there been any instances of 'fake' YM sound chips?

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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 3:57 pm 
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lidnariq wrote:
Well, the YMZ294's inputs are /WR, /CS, A0, Vdd, SO, Gnd, φM, 4/6, /IC, an eight-bit data bus, and /TEST. only SO is an output; everything else is a power supply or logic input.
The SS5B has a bunch more pins, but we can ignore all the digital outputs... tie SS PPU A10..A13 and SS PPU /RD high, connect data bus, SS R/W low (or to YMZ /WR) ... YMZ /CS to SS /ROMSEL, SS CPU A14 high, SS CPU A13 to YMZ A0, SS M2 to YMZ φM... No promises it'd work, 't's just an educated guess.


Hey thanks for your time, though I'm extremely hesitant about opening and accidentally damaging my Gimmick cart and I really don't want to modify it in any way. Do you think there might be some way to connect the YMZ socket to the game cartridge itself using a 3rd party cartridge connector?

I looked at the bottom of the TNS board and there is a series of connections from each cartridge connector slot and YMZ/YM sockets originating from the TNS-HFC5. Pictured below, YMZ's pins 11-18 Data bus (D0-D7) are connected to their respective cartridge pins 37-43 (CPU D0-D7).

TNS-HFX4 bottom side, picturing Cartridge Connector 4 (farthest out from TNS-HFC5 data input), and YMZ294 Socket
Image
(I know it's impossible to see the fine details, my only camera has a really low resolution, but hopefully this helps keep us on the same page)

The only discrepancies I see are:
-the cartridges also receive data from pins 2-15 (CPU A0-A11) and 32 (M2), and 33 (CPU A12) which the YMZ seems to have no involvement with.
-YMZ pin 8 (Clock Select) has 2 small gold squares next to it with which it's connected to one visibly. There is a notation that reads "R2" which I'm guessing means it's a resistor?
-The cartridges also receive 2a03 audio input (pin 45), and sends audio to RF (pin 46), which both have resistors that lead to the mixing board on the opposite side of the board. The YMZ has pin 5 Sound Out but it seems like there is no audio input (I guess cart pin 46 would connect to YMZ pin 5 ?) Also there is no visible connection between YMZ pin 5 and the mixing board from the bottom, but there may be on the top; everything up there is more ambiguous since I can't see the direct connection to the socket since the socket itself is hiding it from view. For that reason there are probably some connections I'm unaware of since I'm just going by visual common sense rather than actual electrical knowledge.


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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 4:56 pm 
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tadashibashi wrote:
the cartridges also receive data from pins 2-15 (CPU A0-A11) and 32 (M2), and 33 (CPU A12) which the YMZ seems to have no involvement with.
Missing M2 is a little weird... the YMZ needs a clock source. What's YMZ294 pin 7 connected to?
Quote:
YMZ pin 8 (Clock Select) has 2 small gold squares next to it with which it's connected to one visibly. There is a notation that reads "R2" which I'm guessing means it's a resistor?
But not populated. The YMZ294 has the option to use an internal frequency divider; in the SS5B that divider is always enabled. (This drops all sounds by an octave, moving the inadvertent "envelope bass" mostly out of the audible range)
Quote:
The cartridges also receive 2a03 audio input (pin 45), and sends audio to RF (pin 46), which both have resistors that lead to the mixing board on the opposite side of the board. The YMZ has pin 5 Sound Out but it seems like there is no audio input (I guess cart pin 46 would connect to YMZ pin 5 ?)
The SS5B mixes the audio from the FC (ignored on the TNS cartridges, I think?) and then uses an on-die amplifier. The YMZ294 doesn't have this amplifier, but I'm not clear if you'll need it.
Quote:
For that reason there are probably some connections I'm unaware of since I'm just going by visual common sense rather than actual electrical knowledge.
Using a continuity meter will help. If you don't have one (such as part of a multimeter) lying around, I've made a super-cheap one out of a AA battery, a pair of headphones, and a 10kΩ resistor—you'll hear a click any time you make or break contact.

It's going to be hard to get you better instructions without having either the TNS schematic or good enough access/pictures to the hardware to recreate the relevant portion of the schematic.


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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 6:55 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
tadashibashi wrote:
the cartridges also receive data from pins 2-15 (CPU A0-A11) and 32 (M2), and 33 (CPU A12) which the YMZ seems to have no involvement with.

Missing M2 is a little weird... the YMZ needs a clock source. What's YMZ294 pin 7 connected to?


I see, it might be that I just don't have a good enough info of the HFX4 schematic. Pins 1-9 on the bottom have no visible connections to anything, but there may be some connections on top that I am unaware of due to my lack of experience with continuity meters. As for getting that schematic, I think Terra Network Systems seems extremely guarded, it's written all over the instructions that there is no support outside of Japan, which would be cool to be able to live in, (not just for this), and I can't pretend I do either since my Japanese sucks even though I'm Japanese haha but I digress :P

Overall, this seems to be outside my current level of capability. Thanks for your help tho!
Maybe I'll look into copyNES, or I'll let you know if I ever find a non-Gimmick SS5B chip to work with.

@also rainwarrior: It's too bad TNS-HFX4 doesn't take 2a03 mixing for YMZ/5B into consideration, which is what you were mentioning earlier which makes 5B's sound subtly unique (compared to YMZ294) right? Maybe copyNES is the best solution afterall...


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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 7:10 pm 
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Well, ok, as a final guess, I'd hope something like the following is true of the YMZ294 socket:
pin 1 = /WR = connected to ground or to R/W (cartridge pin 14)
pin 2 = /CS = connected to /ROMSEL
pin 3 = A0 = hopefully connected to CPU A13 (cartridge pin 34)
pin 4 = Vdd
pin 5 = SoundOut - probably not connected at all
pin 6 = Gnd
pin 7 = φM = connected to M2 (cartridge pin 32)
pin 8 = 4/6 = pulled to ground through a resistor somewhere
pin 9 = /IC = pulled high through a resistor, unless there's explicit reset circuitry somewhere

IF all the above are true, then I'm not clear why just plugging Gimmick! in isn't working.


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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 7:19 pm 
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tadashibashi wrote:
@also rainwarrior: It's too bad TNS-HFX4 doesn't take 2a03 mixing for YMZ/5B into consideration, which is what you were mentioning earlier which makes 5B's sound subtly unique (compared to YMZ294) right? Maybe copyNES is the best solution afterall...


Well, not really, unless you install a CopyNES in a Famicom. You can mod an NES for expansion audio, but the mixing doesn't loop the 2A03 audio through the cartridge like the Famicom does, so you don't get exactly the same situation (5B is mixed separately by itself), though it can be very close. If the 2A03 audio signal is supposed to go through the 5B's amplifier, it could be a bit different. This is a bit unknown to me at the moment, I plan to do some discovery work on this later on this year.


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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 7:29 pm 
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rainwarrior wrote:
Well, not really, unless you install a CopyNES in a Famicom.

Have you installed copyNES on your Famicom? (I saw that you have one on your Gimmick run.)
I currently have an AV Famicom, but am not familiar with the similarities and differences between NES, Famicom, and AV Famicom to safely make the installation.

Quote:
If the 2A03 audio signal is supposed to go through the 5B's amplifier, it could be a bit different. This is a bit unknown to me at the moment, I plan to do some discovery work on this later on this year.

Good luck!


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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 8:34 pm 
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No, my CopyNES is in my NES. Installing it means desoldering and removing the 2A03 CPU, replacing this with a socket, then sticking the CopyNES device in that socket, and then the CPU goes into a socket in the CopyNES device.

The shape of the CopyNES board is designed to fit in an NES case. If you put it on a Famicom or a Top Loader, I think you'd basically have to build a new case to put them in. I dunno whether you could make a different CopyNES PCB that fits, but there's a lot less room in either of those.


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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 9:24 pm 
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Quote:
No, my CopyNES is in my NES. Installing it means desoldering and removing the 2A03 CPU, replacing this with a socket, then sticking the CopyNES device in that socket, and then the CPU goes into a socket in the CopyNES device.


I see, would you then have to use a 60 to 72 pin converter to put Gimmick in? How did you get it to play back with Gimmick exactly?
I know I would need to put a resistor somewhere to get the NES to playback expansion audio. I'll look it up after getting an NES.

Quote:
The shape of the CopyNES board is designed to fit in an NES case. If you put it on a Famicom or a Top Loader, I think you'd basically have to build a new case to put them in. I dunno whether you could make a different CopyNES PCB that fits, but there's a lot less room in either of those.

Okay, I think going down the NES path is probably most practical then.


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