Why my famiclone have space to two xtal?.

Discuss hardware-related topics, such as development cartridges, CopyNES, PowerPak, EPROMs, or whatever.

Moderators: B00daW, Moderators

User avatar
Fisher
Posts: 989
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:58 am
Location: -29.794229 -55.795374

Re: Why my famiclone have space to two xtal?.

Post by Fisher » Mon May 22, 2017 5:42 pm

Is the bug similar to this one?
It was fixed with a diode + capacitor on M2, as explained here.

tic
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:07 pm

Re: Why my famiclone have space to two xtal?.

Post by tic » Tue May 23, 2017 4:17 am

These type they moving to diferent sites in the screen in a pattern like if they have a on/off switch. Sometimes they have more or less. Appears in all sites cartridge menu included.

Not appear in the noac.
Attachments
IMG_20170523_132209.jpg
IMG_20170523_130951.jpg

lidnariq
Posts: 8785
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:12 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Why my famiclone have space to two xtal?.

Post by lidnariq » Tue May 23, 2017 9:59 am

Those lines imply that the CHR ROM is just barely too slow. Perhaps they wired /CE and /OE backwards...

tic
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:07 pm

Re: Why my famiclone have space to two xtal?.

Post by tic » Tue May 23, 2017 2:33 pm

Really is a little strange because the game smoke gun sound horrorous. The music is corrupted in the nevir and even in the modern noac

If you want i can open the cartridge and make a picture of internals.

tic
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:07 pm

Re: Why my famiclone have space to two xtal?.

Post by tic » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:06 pm

lidnariq wrote:Those lines imply that the CHR ROM is just barely too slow. Perhaps they wired /CE and /OE backwards...
I have try these cart in four different nevir mastergames and all have the issues.

But today someone gift me another absolute yellowed. Very early console buyed in january 92. And he not have issues with the cartridge, nothing.

User avatar
Fisher
Posts: 989
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:58 am
Location: -29.794229 -55.795374

Re: Why my famiclone have space to two xtal?.

Post by Fisher » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:06 pm

Interesting.
Maybe you can compare the boards and find the differences.

tic
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:07 pm

Re: Why my famiclone have space to two xtal?.

Post by tic » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:29 am

I can make a pictures to compare,but in the beginnig is the same motherboard layout what mistery.

I view a big difference, this early verssion use two yundai HY6116AP—10 as ram instead the umc. Also the secondary chips change brand.
Attachments
1507803414155-781967572.jpg
1507802690842-1452764040.jpg

User avatar
l_oliveira
Posts: 404
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:51 am
Location: Brasilia, Brazil

Re: Why my famiclone have space to two xtal?.

Post by l_oliveira » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:32 am

Using "modern" bootlegs from China made out of 3.3v flash may have that kind of problem (lines and flashing dots) on original Nintendo hardware (or clones using discrete chips).

Very interesting that this clone has the positions to make a second separated clock oscillator for the PPU. Very early board.

User avatar
Fisher
Posts: 989
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:58 am
Location: -29.794229 -55.795374

Re: Why my famiclone have space to two xtal?.

Post by Fisher » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:55 am

l_oliveira wrote:3.3v flash may have that kind of problem
Interesting...
I've been "reviving" some dead cartridge boards using PLCC chips found on older motherboards.
I thing I should take a look if the chips are 5v tolerant or else I may have problems in the future!!

User avatar
l_oliveira
Posts: 404
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:51 am
Location: Brasilia, Brazil

Re: Why my famiclone have space to two xtal?.

Post by l_oliveira » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:56 pm

Fisher wrote:
l_oliveira wrote:3.3v flash may have that kind of problem
Interesting...
I've been "reviving" some dead cartridge boards using PLCC chips found on older motherboards.
I thing I should take a look if the chips are 5v tolerant or else I may have problems in the future!!
Those will be 5V unless they're "29Lxxxx" or have an "L" somewhere on the code number. Usually PCs using parallel NOR flash did stick to 5V parts. Serial ones (FWHUB or SPI) will likely be using 3.3v instead.

Of course FWHUB and SPI will be kind of useless for the NES, as they're serial memories... Right? :)

User avatar
Fisher
Posts: 989
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:58 am
Location: -29.794229 -55.795374

Re: Why my famiclone have space to two xtal?.

Post by Fisher » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:02 pm

l_oliveira wrote:FWHUB and SPI will be kind of useless for the NES
Sure!
I was thinking in using it somehow on the NES, but unfortunatelly I couldn't think about a nice and easy solution.
They're becoming more common on the thrashed parts.
But I think new motherboards are using something like I2C protocol, aren't they?

With this, my "raise from your graves" party are coming to an end soon... :(
Not that I have much more boards to "ressurect", but I would like to try some SNES games too.

User avatar
l_oliveira
Posts: 404
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:51 am
Location: Brasilia, Brazil

Re: Why my famiclone have space to two xtal?.

Post by l_oliveira » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:18 pm

Fisher wrote:
l_oliveira wrote:FWHUB and SPI will be kind of useless for the NES
But I think new motherboards are using something like I2C protocol, aren't they?
SPI, not I2c, which also happen to be a industry standard on serial bus communication. SPI is that four wire protocol which is used for example in programming of AVR MCUs

tepples
Posts: 21752
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:12 pm
Location: NE Indiana, USA (NTSC)
Contact:

Re: Why my famiclone have space to two xtal?.

Post by tepples » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:58 pm

Variants of SPI are used for NES, Super NES, and PlayStation controllers and for Game Link on Game Boy and Game Boy Color. The difference is that MOSI (master out slave in) and chip select are intertwined on the Nintendo systems.

tic
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:07 pm

Re: Why my famiclone have space to two xtal?.

Post by tic » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:47 am

l_oliveira wrote:Using "modern" bootlegs from China made out of 3.3v flash may have that kind of problem (lines and flashing dots) on original Nintendo hardware (or clones using discrete chips).

Very interesting that this clone has the positions to make a second separated clock oscillator for the PPU. Very early board.
lidnariq wrote:Those lines imply that the CHR ROM is just barely too slow. Perhaps they wired /CE and /OE backwards...
Voltage in this case or is the umc ram speed?. Its not only litte lines,it depend of the console, but the lines can be massive in all screen. And in super mario bros i view a slowdown and a ghost images of the screen elements tubes etc etc that go with you until are redrawed with new ghost images.

I can't found anything about the umc ram specification anyway. But in the console with hyundai chips (100ns) works perfect.

lidnariq
Posts: 8785
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:12 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Why my famiclone have space to two xtal?.

Post by lidnariq » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:00 pm

tic wrote:Voltage in this case or is the umc ram speed?. Its not only litte lines,it depend of the console, but the lines can be massive in all screen. And in super mario bros i view a slowdown and a ghost images of the screen elements tubes etc etc that go with you until are redrawed with new ghost images.

I can't found anything about the umc ram specification anyway. But in the console with hyundai chips (100ns) works perfect.
I mean, both.

Basically, the little 8x1 glitches come from the PPU fetch pattern. Every 8x1 chunk of pixels in the background comes from the following sequence by the PPU:
* Fetch which tile should be drawn from PPU RAM
* Fetch what color that tile should be drawn from PPU RAM
* Fetch one bitplane of the tile from CHR
* Fetch the other bitplane of the tile from CHR

If any one of those steps go wrong, you'll get one of those 8x1 glitches.

There's a bunch of ways that adding an unprotected 3V ROM could screw things up.

* Because of the PPU's multiplexed data bus, a 3V ROM could drag the data bus too low to be reliably and correctly latched by the 74'373. In turn, that'd cause a fetch from the wrong address and thus the wrong tile.

* Because the CHR ROM is only driving its output up to ≈3.3V, the output won't necessarily have risen high enough fast enough to be received by the PPU correctly. And then, bad value → glitch.

Post Reply