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| $4016 D3 and D4 ports on Famicom http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=18747 |
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| Author: | rainwarrior [ Thu May 02, 2019 1:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: $4016 D3 and D4 ports on Famicom |
Probably not news to the people in this thread, but I hadn't seen what the Four Score PCB looks like. There are some good photos here: http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=22&threadid=65237 So it was actually made by Hori? Both the ASIC and the PCB have their name on it. tepples wrote: Would it be accurate to sum it up as a Four Score connected to D1 with $4017 and $4016 swapped at both the input and output? Are we missing a turbo feature? |
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| Author: | Bananmos [ Thu May 02, 2019 5:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: $4016 D3 and D4 ports on Famicom |
So I've just tried Micro Mages, and realised to my disappointment that both my Fourscores are PAL variants and won't play it at all on my NTSC NES. And judging by the thread at Nintendo age, no one has figured out a solution for how to mod the fourscore either. I'd like to avoid any more delay in getting Micro Mages to run in 4-player mode, by just buying a US one on eBay. But this is proving more difficult than expected. The listings which show the back side of the fourscore are few and far between. So I guess my best bet is to look at the seller's location and hope it indicates the right model. What's more, I'm not even sure exactly what part number I am looking for here, as despite loads of googling I cannot find any definite statement of what part number the US fourscore actually has. So far, I've found pages saying that the common European version is "NESE-034", and the one released in Scandinavia is "NES-034". And then yet another page saying the Scandinavian model is "NES-034A". And yet, I seem to be finding US sellers on ebay selling "NES-034A" versions. So something doesn't add up here... Could anyone fortunate enough to own a US fourscore check the back / upload a photo? |
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| Author: | tepples [ Thu May 02, 2019 5:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: $4016 D3 and D4 ports on Famicom |
From the back of the Four Score accessory (for NTSC NES) that I bought to write the "Eighty" tech demo: Nintendo® |
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| Author: | lidnariq [ Thu May 02, 2019 7:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: $4016 D3 and D4 ports on Famicom |
Bananmos wrote: So I've just tried Micro Mages, and realised to my disappointment that both my Fourscores are PAL variants and won't play it at all on my NTSC NES. And judging by the thread at Nintendo age, no one has figured out a solution for how to mod the fourscore either. I'd guess that the controller ports on the PAL Four Score have the same stupid pile of diodes that the PAL NES has...
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| Author: | Pokun [ Fri May 03, 2019 1:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: $4016 D3 and D4 ports on Famicom |
Yes, but only PAL-A (IIRC) and certain (German) PAL-B Four Scores. They should work on any NES but they require NES-004E controllers. The SCN PAL-B Four Scores shouldn't have those diodes or else they wouldn't be usable with the NES-004 controllers that NTSC and SCN NES systems comes with. In other words NES-034A should be fine for NTSC and should work with any NES controllers. rainwarrior wrote: tepples wrote: Would it be accurate to sum it up as a Four Score connected to D1 with $4017 and $4016 swapped at both the input and output? Are we missing a turbo feature? |
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| Author: | lidnariq [ Fri May 03, 2019 2:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: $4016 D3 and D4 ports on Famicom |
Pokun wrote: Some people use one of the D3 or D4 pins for the microphone which breaks Zappers and accessories but then adds a switch so you have to choose either microphone or Zapper but not both at the same time. ... Could you get away with shorting 4016d2 and 4017d3? Such that whatever's plugged in (controller with microphone, or zapper) the same bit will appear in both places?I suppose it could be a problem if there games that use the microphone and also the zapper? |
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| Author: | Bananmos [ Fri May 03, 2019 4:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: $4016 D3 and D4 ports on Famicom |
So to my delight, it appears that NES-004E controllers *do* work on an NTSC NES when plugged into a NESE-034 fourscore. And they are the standard ones here in the UK, so easy to buy. I just didn't happen to have many of them, since my PAL NES's were from Sweden, and I then got NTSC ones - both of which use the NES-004 controller variant. So looks like I'll soon have a 4-player Micro Mages setup after all... and the fourscore setup will be useful as a general coord extension too. 
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| Author: | rainwarrior [ Fri May 03, 2019 7:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: $4016 D3 and D4 ports on Famicom |
Do we have some documentation I could reference about the PAL controllers' diode protection? From what I could find: the PAL controller port has 6 diodes on it, which can be bypassed to get NTSC controllers to work. To mod the controller side instead to work with PAL the recommendation is to put two 3.6K resistors connecting both LATCH and CLK to 5V. Presumably the latter is how the PAL controllers are normally wired? Is there a schematic for the diodes in the controller port? Are there any negative consequences of doing either mod, or is it perfectly safe to use a PAL controller with an NTSC system? Is it unsafe to have an NTSC controller plugged into a PAL system? |
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| Author: | lidnariq [ Fri May 03, 2019 7:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: $4016 D3 and D4 ports on Famicom |
rainwarrior wrote: Is there a schematic for the diodes in the controller port? Using the pictures here and here, it appears to be+5V --|>|-- jack D3 --|>|-- jack D4 --|>|-- jack D0 --|>|-- jack OUT --|<|-- jack CLK --|<|-- jack Attachment:
File comment: the marked capacitor isn't populated nes controllers PAL1-marked.png [ 61.26 KiB | Viewed 7551 times ] Digitally, the diodes on D0, D3, D4 are a no-op - the NES already has a pull-up inside the console. However, on OUT and CLK it makes them open-collector, and the controller must add those pull-ups to work around it. The diode on +5V makes this really sound like it was for some sort of regulatory compliance instead of "just" region locking them. Quote: Are there any negative consequences of doing either mod, or is it perfectly safe to use a PAL controller with an NTSC system? I can't think of any reason that the extra pull-ups on a NES system (3.6kΩ) would be bad. There's already a 10kΩ pull-up inside the console; two PAL controllers plugged into a deck would consume a tiny bit more static power – about 1.4mA per controller since OUT is idle low and CLK is idle high.Quote: Is it unsafe to have an NTSC controller plugged into a PAL system? No, it just won't work. It'll always see OUT and CLK as low, so no bits will ever come out.Pedantically, diodes actually do conduct a tiny amount when reverse-biased, so it's conceivable that a sufficiently leisurely reading routine might be able to coax bits out. |
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| Author: | rainwarrior [ Fri May 03, 2019 11:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: $4016 D3 and D4 ports on Famicom |
Thanks for that explanation. |
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| Author: | Pokun [ Sat May 04, 2019 8:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: $4016 D3 and D4 ports on Famicom |
Yes thanks! I'm glad to finally get a good explanation of how they are wired and why NES-004 controllers doesn't work on non-SCN PAL systems and Four Scores. I see that the Hori multitap and the non-SCN PAL controller situation are both added to the wiki. Great! Maybe the non-SCN PAL Four Score (NESE-034) should be mentioned too. It works on any NES (and HVC-101 I guess) but it requires controllers with pull-ups (NESE-004). lidnariq wrote: Pokun wrote: Some people use one of the D3 or D4 pins for the microphone which breaks Zappers and accessories but then adds a switch so you have to choose either microphone or Zapper but not both at the same time. ... Could you get away with shorting 4016d2 and 4017d3? Such that whatever's plugged in (controller with microphone, or zapper) the same bit will appear in both places?I suppose it could be a problem if there games that use the microphone and also the zapper? lidnariq wrote: The diode on +5V makes this really sound like it was for some sort of regulatory compliance instead of "just" region locking them. Then again Nintendo did the same thing with PAL SNES controllers, and that time they didn't discriminate Scandinavia either.On the other hand, the 64 has region-free controllers but PAL versions got a ferrite bead lump on the cord. It's like a pattern of Nintendo to modify PAL controllers. |
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| Author: | lidnariq [ Sat May 04, 2019 2:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: $4016 D3 and D4 ports on Famicom |
Pokun wrote: Yes and maybe a buzzy microphone would also mess with the Zapper. I think the microphone needs a separate wire. But only if there are games that care about both at the same time, right? The point is that on the AV Famicom there's no microphone unless the user added it... Whereas on the original Famicom someone theoretically could have held the P2 controller as a mic and the zapper at the same time.So it's true that if a game expects the microphone, and the zapper is plugged in instead, it'll get a nonsense signal, and vice versa ... but if the right peripheral is plugged in, and no game cares about both at the same time, I can't figure out why it wouldn't be ok? — Also, I sat down and traced the picture of the PCB of the US Four Score, and found something interesting... they didn't swap the various pins on the ASIC around to achieve the changed signature... I think the signature might be controlled by pin 12... either that, or pins 13-16 are wired differently and pin 12 routes the different signals differently. Code: ---v--- * can't verify, assumed same as preceding pinout.P2 Clk <- |o 1 22 | -- 5V P2 Dat -> | 2 21 | <- 2//4 P3 Clk <- | 3 20 | -> P1 Clk P3 Dat -> | 4 19 | <- P1 Dat P4 Clk <- | 5 18 | -> relayed OUT P4 Dat -> | 6 17 | <- *out? TurboB -> | 7 16 | -> *4016d? TurboA -> | 8 15 | <- *clk1? C/RA -> | 9 14 | -> *4017d? RB <- | 10 13 | <- *clk2? Gnd -- | 11 12 | <- gnd*** ------- *** note change (edit:) Have to admit I'm tempted to get my hands on a Four Score just so that I can see what changes if I change what pin 12 is tied to. Pull-ups R2, R3, & R4 on the board pull "out", "clk1", and "clk2" high. Current-limiting resistors R9, R10 prevent bus conflicts (with what??) on "4016d" and "4017d". Every pin between the ASIC and one of the controller jacks has undervoltage protection diodes (nine in total: one for OUT, four for DATA and four for CLOCK). Every data pin from a controller has a pull-up resistor. Also, in hindsight, there's no reason the Four Score needs its own 25µs RC to detect when to restart the serial stream, so I'm not entirely certain what it is for. It's too fast to just be the turbo button control, although they obviously could have a digital divider inside. |
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| Author: | krzysiobal [ Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: $4016 D3 and D4 ports on Famicom |
I did few experiments with four-score (PAL version 1.1, chip: FPA-PAL-S01).     First, the exact shape and parameters of input clocks (pin 9, 10): 13.2395 kHz  Then, I wrote a simple program that returns in loop state of button A as fast as possible, Code: lda #1 ldx #0 clc forever1: sta $4016 stx $4016 bcc forever1 enabled "turbo A" on four score and hold the A button. The button read-back state was alternating every 34.617ms and the transition always appeared during rising edge of four-score clock, every 512 of them.  Next I looked at the time dependency between OUT0 (from console) and its buffered version (fed into joypads), as well as the joypad clocks.  And last thing is the mysterious pin 12 - it alters he signature returned by 16-24 reads. When disconnected, it seems to be internally pulled up to +5V. Code: pin 12 | $4016 reads 16-24 | $4017 reads 16-24 GND $10 $20 +5V $20 $10 BTW. I did few months ago similar adapter, which can work in 3 modes (selected by switch): Mode 1 - 4 players in NES format Mode 2 - 4 players in Famicom format Mode 3 - Joypad 1 and 3 controls $4016.D0 and Joypad 2 and 4 controls $4017.D0 (So you can play regular 1 player games using 2 joypas or 2 player games using 4 joypads) 
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