It is currently Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:42 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:49 pm
Posts: 7319
Location: Chexbres, VD, Switzerland
Someone should do a script that automatically deletes any thread or post with the word "flicker" in it.

PS : And no, I was not completely serious, but still...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:57 pm
Posts: 1248
You guys seriously need to chill out.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:44 pm
Posts: 924
Location: Japan
mikejmoffitt wrote:
I was under the impression that all that is shifted is the color sub-carrier's position. This is to even out the artifacts over time.

Chris Covell's I want my RGB page describes this fairly decently on the screenshots page, and has this image to demonstrate:

Image


I should add that I wrote right above it:
Quote:
Here's a theoretical example:


ie: it's not the NES specifically, but systems that vary their colourburst to get rid of artifacts.

_________________
http://www.chrismcovell.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:43 am
Posts: 1589
Dwedit wrote:
Oh god... Flickering again? We've been through this 100 times already. Flicker on LCD = good, flicker on anything else = bad.

You mean the same LCDs that deinterlace every signal no matter what and completely destroy the flicker illusion? (and in fact that horizontal lines flickering idea would be completely broken on such a TV because it'll look like thick horizontal lines instead of alternating patterns)

In the end the only thing that seems to work properly is to avoid faking colors altogether and try to make graphics look good exclusively with solid colors, but that starts getting annoying when the amount of colors is so small.

Also any technique is going to look bad no matter what when the two colors in the mix are too different (like the green and black in those TMNT pics), even when there aren't any signal noise artifacts at all. It's just too noticeable to be usable.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:28 pm
Posts: 3192
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
Sik wrote:
In the end the only thing that seems to work properly is to avoid faking colors altogether and try to make graphics look good exclusively with solid colors, but that starts getting annoying when the amount of colors is so small.

You work with what you got, and what you've got is a console developed during the early-to-mid-80s and RTM mid-to-late 80s, using technology that was available at the time. I dunno what else there is to say; that's the reality of the situation. If you absolutely need/want more colours to accomplish the visual style you want, I would recommend going the SNES/SFC route. You'll be surprised how much easier it is to develop on the that platform anyway.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:36 am
Posts: 2983
Location: Tampere, Finland
koitsu wrote:
Sik wrote:
In the end the only thing that seems to work properly is to avoid faking colors altogether and try to make graphics look good exclusively with solid colors, but that starts getting annoying when the amount of colors is so small.

You work with what you got, and what you've got is a console developed during the early-to-mid-80s and RTM mid-to-late 80s, using technology that was available at the time. I dunno what else there is to say; that's the reality of the situation. If you absolutely need/want more colours to accomplish the visual style you want, I would recommend going the SNES/SFC route. You'll be surprised how much easier it is to develop on the that platform anyway.

Why not take the next step and develop on PC instead? Now THAT'S when the developing really becomes easier. Point being, part of the charm is trying to push the envelope.

Personally I think there's a time and place for flickery type effects. I probably wouldn't use them in games (unless I can verify that it looks OK across the board), but I think it's fine to use them in demos.

_________________
Download STREEMERZ for NES from fauxgame.com! — Some other stuff I've done: kkfos.aspekt.fi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:31 am
Posts: 108
Location: Brazil
Sik wrote:
Dwedit wrote:
Also any technique is going to look bad no matter what when the two colors in the mix are too different (like the green and black in those TMNT pics), even when there aren't any signal noise artifacts at all. It's just too noticeable to be usable.


These images are there only as a visual reference of different flickering techniques. I've never said they make good use of colors - because I know they don't. :)
TMNT was one of the few conversions I've made using both checkerboard and horizontal lines flickering - so I tought it could be interesting to show it here (despite color palettes).

But I'll repeat a sentence from my TMNT post:
Diagonal artifacts seems to be present all the time when using Composite cables, no matter how similar flickered colors are..
Samples of checkboarded patterns made of similar colors (+NTSC/Composite filter on Nestopia):
Image Image Image Image
The diagonal "rainbow patterns" are still there...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:36 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:28 pm
Posts: 3192
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
thefox wrote:
Why not take the next step and develop on PC instead? Now THAT'S when the developing really becomes easier. ...

...until you have to deal with graphics APIs and underlying SDKs with crappy documentation, with a Web filled with completely wrong information. There's a reason I stopped doing anything with graphics/video circa 1997. Kudos to anyone who toughs it out, but god the situation is abysmal today.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:43 am
Posts: 1589
Macbee wrote:
The diagonal "rainbow patterns" are still there...

Not anywhere even remotely as noticeable though. Could be even considered passable, the Blanka pic seems to be the only one where it's sorta easy to notice (the Sega logo happens to go along the diagonals ^_^') and even then the impact is pretty light.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:31 am
Posts: 108
Location: Brazil
Sik wrote:
Macbee wrote:
The diagonal "rainbow patterns" are still there...

Not anywhere even remotely as noticeable though. Could be even considered passable, the Blanka pic seems to be the only one where it's sorta easy to notice (the Sega logo happens to go along the diagonals ^_^') and even then the impact is pretty light.


Yep, I agree with you. These patterns are discrete and "forgivable" to me as well.
I just tried to illustrate they'll always be there if checkerboard is used.

Don't get me wrong: I'm a big fan of flickering - no matter how it's done. :)
Thanks (again!) to thefox for his amazing "Nes Image Converter" tool. I'm still addicted to this software 1+ year after I've downloaded it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:10 am
Posts: 597
Location: Estonia, Rapla city (50 and 60Hz compatible :P)
On SMS and MD you get straight vertical rainbowing not diagonal. There is no colorburst shifting happening of any kind on them.

_________________
http://www.tmeeco.eu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:43 pm
Posts: 1312
TmEE wrote:
On SMS and MD you get straight vertical rainbowing not diagonal. There is no colorburst shifting happening of any kind on them.

Advantageously straight vertical lines don't look fuzzy?scratchy as a result, though (Mario flagpole I am looking at you!)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:57 pm
Posts: 1248
Macbee wrote:
1) Checkerboard patterns -
Pros: It's the ultimate flicker technique to make good looking images. Results are usually impressive.
Cons: Diagonal artifacts seems to be present all the time when using Composite cables, no matter how similar flickered colors are.

2) Horizontal lines patterns -
Pros: It's the only flicker technique that doesn't seem to create diagonal artifacts when using Composite cables.
Cons: End results doesn't look as good as checkerboard flickered images (shakiness is way more evident).


What happens when you use a horizontally-stretched checkerboard pattern?

For instance, two columns for every row, or three columns for every row:

Code:
xx  xx
  xx  xx
xx  xx


xxx   xxx
   xxx   xxx
xxx   xxx


This seems like it'd be a good compromise between the two methods.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:12 pm
Posts: 19353
Location: NE Indiana, USA (NTSC)
Videomation uses a stretched-checkerboard pattern for six of the ten color choices.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:43 pm
Posts: 1312
Drag wrote:
Macbee wrote:
1) Checkerboard patterns -
Pros: It's the ultimate flicker technique to make good looking images. Results are usually impressive.
Cons: Diagonal artifacts seems to be present all the time when using Composite cables, no matter how similar flickered colors are.

2) Horizontal lines patterns -
Pros: It's the only flicker technique that doesn't seem to create diagonal artifacts when using Composite cables.
Cons: End results doesn't look as good as checkerboard flickered images (shakiness is way more evident).


What happens when you use a horizontally-stretched checkerboard pattern?

For instance, two columns for every row, or three columns for every row:

Code:
xx  xx
  xx  xx
xx  xx


xxx   xxx
   xxx   xxx
xxx   xxx


This seems like it'd be a good compromise between the two methods.


Unfortunately, this ends up looking less like blended colors and more like a stretched checkerboard at that point.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group