It is currently Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:24 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: SUNSOFT-4, SUNSOFT-6
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:58 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:10 am
Posts: 61
Location: リムルダール Rimuldar
アフターバーナーの仕様が気になったので、SUNSOFT-4 系を調査しました。なんてったって!!ベースボールの仕様も詳細がわかりました。
どなたか、パッチなしで動くようなエミュレータを実装してください。

なんてったって!!ベースボールの追加ROMカートリッジの中に SUNSOFT-6 というものがありました。 SUNSOFT 系 IC の 6 がなかったのですが、ここからでてきました。

After Burnner, Charcter ROM x1 version
なんてったって!!ベースボール '91開幕版


Attachments:
sunsoft_ntb_sub_pcb.jpg
sunsoft_ntb_sub_pcb.jpg [ 389.27 KiB | Viewed 19198 times ]
sunsoft_ab_6a.jpg
sunsoft_ab_6a.jpg [ 872.95 KiB | Viewed 19198 times ]


Last edited by naruko on Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: SUNSOFT-4, SUNSOFT-6
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:10 am
Posts: 61
Location: リムルダール Rimuldar
記載の間違いを修正しました。古いテキストファイルは削除します。
誤) 開幕版
正) 開幕編

誤) '91 開幕編は 0x4000 byte のデータを 4 度繰り返す (実質 0x2000 byte x8)
正) '91 開幕編は 0x4000 byte のデータを 8 度繰り返す (実質 0x2000 byte x16)
(追記: これも間違っていました!)

Lidnariq さんいつもありがとう。


Last edited by naruko on Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: SUNSOFT-4, SUNSOFT-6
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 6509
Location: Seattle
Why the comment about 8KB ROMs? Will ROMs be made with data for current seasons?
(google:なぜ、8キロバイトのROMについてのコメント?ROMは現在の季節のためのデータで作られるのだろうか?)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: SUNSOFT-4, SUNSOFT-6
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:08 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:10 am
Posts: 61
Location: リムルダール Rimuldar
修正理由は繰り返しの計算が間違ってただけです。

"現在の季節"というのは、野球の更新データのことですかね?
これは日本のプロ野球(NPB)の前年のデータを反映しています。
サブカートリッジなしの場合は1989年を参考にしています。(チームの名前や個人の名前を少し変えています。
http://bis.npb.or.jp/yearly/centralleague_1989.html

サブカートリッジなしで「チームをえらんでください。」の画面でG(igants),C(arp),D(ragons),S(allows),T(igers),W(ohells) の順位に並んでいます。
'91 開幕編の場合はG,C,W,D,S,T の順に変わっているのは1990年のリーグの結果が理由です。
http://bis.npb.or.jp/yearly/centralleague_1990.html


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: SUNSOFT-4, SUNSOFT-6
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 6509
Location: Seattle
Ah! Thank you for the explanation.

What I was trying to ask was: in your picture there is a 32KB EPROM. There is 16KB of data in the documented copies of the two expansions. Where did 8KB come from?

(google:ああ!説明していただきありがとうございます。

私は何を求めることを試みていたことでした:あなたの写真に32キロバイトのEPROMがある。 2拡張の文書化されたコピーのデータの16キロバイトがあります。 8KBは、どこから来たのか?)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: SUNSOFT-4, SUNSOFT-6
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:10 am
Posts: 61
Location: リムルダール Rimuldar
ご指摘の意味がわかりました。記述が間違っていました。

1回目の投稿の文書では「0x4000 byte のデータを 4度繰り返す」と書いたのですが、 0x20000 にならないので記述が間違ってることに気づきました。
そこで 0x4000 byte のデータを8度繰り返し、と修正したのが2回目の投稿です。 0x20000 にはなってはいますが、意味がおかしいですね。

今度は「0x8000 btyte のデータを4度繰り返す」に直しました。ROM page #0-#7 は全て同じデータになりますし、27C256 を使っていることから、これで辻褄が合います。ご指摘ありがとうございました。

----
話は変わりますが、bandai の FCG-1, FCG-2 と LZ93D50 (FCG-3) についても明確な違いがあるので文書にまとめようか悩んでいます。
$6000-$ffff がレジスタアドレスとなっているのが大きな誤解なのと、データックについて調査したぐらいで、それ以外は推測ばかりなるので出さない方がいいかなと思ってます。


Attachments:
sunsoft4.txt [11.86 KiB]
Downloaded 166 times
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: SUNSOFT-4, SUNSOFT-6
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 6509
Location: Seattle
Thank you for sharing your research! Your contributions are truly appreciated.

(google:あなたの研究を共有していただきありがとうございます!あなたの貢献は本当に感謝しています。)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: SUNSOFT-4, SUNSOFT-6
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:11 am
Posts: 109
Location: Trieste, Italy
First of all, huge thanks to naruko for sharing the info
万謝 naruko!!!

Second, sorry for writing in English, but I don't understand Japanese...

Anyway, I have partially implemented the NTB-ROM/Sunsoft-6 behavior in MESS, as part of a series of improvements I was working on, and it would have never been possible without your help!

plain Nantettatte!! Baseball
Image

Nantettatte!! Baseball + '91開幕編
Image

Nantettatte!! Baseball + OBオールスター編
Image

I'd need some additional info, if possible. First of all, erm... what are the messages in the next screens supposed to represent?
Image Image
if I don't clear the battery RAM and I change the add-on cart, the first screen appears (with various combinations of 0, 1, 2 depending of the carts loaded), followed by the second one...

I can't exclude that my emulation is incomplete, but I'd like to have the support working before our next public release :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: SUNSOFT-4, SUNSOFT-6
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:17 pm
Posts: 437
The first message says something like: "The data cartridge has changed. If you'd like to erase your save data, press start. Otherwise, turn off the power and put back the data cartridge you saved with."

The second message says: "The save data has been cleared."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: SUNSOFT-4, SUNSOFT-6
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:11 am
Posts: 109
Location: Trieste, Italy
thanks. I deduce that something similar also happens on a real cart then :)

for the record, MESS will support the subcarts only as separate files, not merged with the main Nantettatte!! Baseball cart.

it is a code restriction, but to me it sounds also philosophically more accurate since the original carts were separate from the main one ;)

also, does anyone have a picture of the subcart connector on the Nantettatte!! Baseball? I have always wondered how it did look like from the outside


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: SUNSOFT-4, SUNSOFT-6
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 6509
Location: Seattle
etabeta wrote:
also, does anyone have a picture of the subcart connector on the Nantettatte!! Baseball? I have always wondered how it did look like from the outside

Well, there's the pictures in nescartdb: http://bootgod.dyndns.org:7777/profile.php?id=2265


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: SUNSOFT-4, SUNSOFT-6
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:04 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:11 am
Posts: 109
Location: Trieste, Italy
I know very well that picture ;)
Problem is that it only shows the plain game and it does not show where you would put the NTB-ROM cart, or in other words where the blue connector of that pic shows up in the original cart.

I was under the impression that the update cart was sold separately from the original cart and it had to be connected to the main cart externally by the user (and hence I was curious about how externally it looked like)
but I could be wrong, and maybe the OB & '91 re-release came as a full cart with the second PCB internally connected to the original one, with no intervention of the end user.

it does not help that all website discussing these games are in Japanese only, and that I have found no OB or 91 cart picture in any website...

EDIT: OK, I was right, but I definitely need to improve my google skillz... today it took me a few minutes to find what I was looking for since 2009

Image

Image

from a Jpn blogger, zation0323, which has just become my hero :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: SUNSOFT-4, SUNSOFT-6
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:10 am
Posts: 61
Location: リムルダール Rimuldar
対応ありがとうございます!
わたしは MAME/MESS をゲームの解析によく利用しています。SUNSOFT-4 & 6 の解析にも MESS のデバッガを使い、 nes_pcb.c を読んで分析しました。MESS へフィードバックできることはうれしいですね。

テキストファイルに「個別のデータ管理という点では 1 つのファイルにまとめるのはよいものとは思えません。」と書いた理由は MAME の ROM の管理方法を理想的だと考えているからです。
MESS で ROM を分離して使用するということは良い考えです。ありがとう!

Joe さん: 機械翻訳できないゲーム画面のひらがなを補足してくれてありがとうございます。


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: SUNSOFT-4, SUNSOFT-6
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:11 am
Posts: 109
Location: Trieste, Italy
Yeah, the debugger is the nicest feature MAME/MESS offers :)

I'm happy to see that other people find it useful also for NES debugging!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: SUNSOFT-4, SUNSOFT-6
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:11 am
Posts: 109
Location: Trieste, Italy
Small update just to report that latest MESS svn now supports proper NTB-ROM loading and playing

Pending a CRC check to detect Nantettatte!! Baseball among games of the same mapper, we currently support this only through our softlist

Namely, you need to have the base game zipped as "nantbb.zip" (with split PRG & CHR) and the update cart zipped as "ntb_91.zip" and "ntb_ob.zip" (the PRG1 chunks are enough), everything inside the roms/ (or roms/nes/) directory as you would do when using MAME

Then you can launch the games respectively with

"mess nes -cart nantbb"
"mess nes -cart nantbb -cart2 ntb_91"
"mess nes -cart nantbb -cart2 ntb_ob"

Once again, many thanks to naruko for the reverse engineering of this hardware :)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group