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 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:48 pm 
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lidnariq wrote:
Eugene, any chance you could take a picture of thefox's or my chroma merging tests? I'm curious whether the Dendy PPU's as peculiar as the 2C07.

A word of caution about my test: it looks like I made it use MMC1 for some reason that I can't remember, but omitted doing any mapper initialization (wtf?). It was probably an accident, so I've attached the same ROM as NROM into the original post.

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 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:00 pm 
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Uh, Sunrise is coming, so too much glare on TV-screen


Attachments:
palblend.jpg
palblend.jpg [ 693.64 KiB | Viewed 3602 times ]
pal-chroma-merge-test.jpg
pal-chroma-merge-test.jpg [ 987.64 KiB | Viewed 3602 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:11 pm 
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Eugene.S wrote:
Uh, Sunrise is coming, so too much glare on TV-screen

Interesting, looks like Dendy PPU's color generation is indeed different than in 2C07.

Are the colors on the bottom left and bottom right the same?

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 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:18 pm 
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Do you mean palblend test?
Bottom-right is more violet than bottom-left.


Attachments:
kinopio_nes_palette_viewer_updated.nes [24.02 KiB]
Downloaded 9 times
nes palette viewer.nes [24.02 KiB]
Downloaded 153 times


Last edited by Eugene.S on Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:56 am 
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Here is new, more accurate capturing via AverMedia tuner (thanks to HardWareMan):

Blarrg's Full Palette viewer:
composite: http://hwm.us.to/famimusic/Capture/6538 ... posite.png
s-video: http://hwm.us.to/famimusic/Capture/6538 ... Svideo.png

Kinopio's test:
composite: http://hwm.us.to/famimusic/Capture/6538 ... posite.png
s-video: http://hwm.us.to/famimusic/Capture/6538 ... Svideo.png

Merge test:
composite: http://hwm.us.to/famimusic/Capture/6538 ... posite.png
svideo: http://hwm.us.to/famimusic/Capture/6538 ... Svideo.png

Palblend test:
composite: http://hwm.us.to/famimusic/Capture/6538 ... posite.PNG
s-video: http://hwm.us.to/famimusic/Capture/6538 ... SVideo.PNG


Last edited by Eugene.S on Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:15 am 
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Eugene.S wrote:
Here is new, more accurate capturing via AverMedia tuner (thanks to HardWareMan):

Are these shots from a different version of the Dendy PPU than the ones from before? In this case the color generation seems to be the same as in 2C07.

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 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:18 am 
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Yes, this is different PPUs

My PPU is:
UMC UA6538
9051-bs
813410
http://forums.nesdev.com/download/file. ... &mode=view

HWM's PPU:
UMC UA6538
9051-bs
611510
http://hwm.us.to/famimusic/Capture/6538 ... posite.png

This is so strange. There are similar chips.


Last edited by Eugene.S on Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:01 am 
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Location: NE Indiana, USA (NTSC)
Unless different TVs are decoding the signal differently. Could you try the two revisions on the same brand of TV or tuner card?


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 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:05 am 
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Yes you are right Tepples.
I've just replaced my PPU to 611510 revision, like HardWareMan have.
And my TV shows this picture like 813410 revision


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 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:22 am 
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Given the Avermedia pictures, I wonder if plugging a 2C07/Dendy straight into S-video luma would give us enough information to reverse engineer what's going on?

Or maybe there's already enough image in the "Kinopio's test: s-video" picture?

It's a little unfortunate that 13.5 MHz ÷ 4.43MHz is only ≈3. Makes it a little more difficult to determine what's going on solely by inspection instead of rigorous measurement.


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 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:37 am 
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I can do more (clickable):
Image
Image
I can disconnect chroma pin to get pure B&W picture with color subcarrier on it, but I think reducing saturation is more than enough. Anyway, these pictures has no most imported part of puzzle: color burst. Because PAL/NTSC decoders adjust their PLL with color burst and then compare phase shift of subcarrier in scanline. So at this pictures we see only relative phase shift between different colors.


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 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:59 am 
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I'd like to see how all $1x colors mix with a neutral gray $00 on alternating scanlines. Should I write a quick test ROM for this?


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 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:59 am 
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Yes, you can write it. I and HardWareMan both have InviteNESes flashcartridges to test it.

here is updated version of Kinopio's palette viewer
It work stable on NTSC/PAL/Dendy timings:
download/file.php?id=14270


Attachments:
nes palette captured.zip [7.33 KiB]
Downloaded 147 times


Last edited by Eugene.S on Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:12 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:59 am 
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tepples wrote:
I'd like to see how all $1x colors mix with a neutral gray $00 on alternating scanlines. Should I write a quick test ROM for this?

Yes, please.


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 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:28 am 
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Location: NE Indiana, USA (NTSC)
"Your message contains too few characters."


Attachments:
File comment: PAL phase test (NROM-128 binary and source)
palphase-0.01.zip [13.59 KiB]
Downloaded 157 times
File comment: Theoretical output of the program if an RGB PAL NES existed
palphase_ideal_output.png
palphase_ideal_output.png [ 8.53 KiB | Viewed 3492 times ]
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