It is currently Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:43 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 85 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:36 am
Posts: 2963
Location: Tampere, Finland
lidnariq wrote:
Eugene, any chance you could take a picture of thefox's or my chroma merging tests? I'm curious whether the Dendy PPU's as peculiar as the 2C07.

A word of caution about my test: it looks like I made it use MMC1 for some reason that I can't remember, but omitted doing any mapper initialization (wtf?). It was probably an accident, so I've attached the same ROM as NROM into the original post.

_________________
Download STREEMERZ for NES from fauxgame.com! — Some other stuff I've done: kkfos.aspekt.fi


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:36 am
Posts: 257
Location: Russia
Uh, Sunrise is coming, so too much glare on TV-screen


Attachments:
palblend.jpg
palblend.jpg [ 693.64 KiB | Viewed 1913 times ]
pal-chroma-merge-test.jpg
pal-chroma-merge-test.jpg [ 987.64 KiB | Viewed 1913 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:36 am
Posts: 2963
Location: Tampere, Finland
Eugene.S wrote:
Uh, Sunrise is coming, so too much glare on TV-screen

Interesting, looks like Dendy PPU's color generation is indeed different than in 2C07.

Are the colors on the bottom left and bottom right the same?

_________________
Download STREEMERZ for NES from fauxgame.com! — Some other stuff I've done: kkfos.aspekt.fi


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:36 am
Posts: 257
Location: Russia
Do you mean palblend test?
Bottom-right is more violet than bottom-left.


Attachments:
nes palette viewer.nes [24.02 KiB]
Downloaded 85 times


Last edited by Eugene.S on Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:56 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:36 am
Posts: 257
Location: Russia
Here is new, more accurate capturing via AverMedia tuner (thanks to HardWareMan):

Blarrg's Full Palette viewer:
composite: http://hwm.us.to/famimusic/Upload/Dendy ... posite.png
s-video: http://hwm.us.to/famimusic/Upload/Dendy ... Svideo.png

Kinopio's test:
composite: http://hwm.us.to/famimusic/Upload/Dendy ... posite.png
s-video: http://hwm.us.to/famimusic/Upload/Dendy ... Svideo.png

Merge test:
composite: http://hwm.us.to/famimusic/Upload/Dendy ... posite.png
svideo: http://hwm.us.to/famimusic/Upload/Dendy ... Svideo.png

Palblend test:
composite: http://hwm.us.to/famimusic/Upload/Dendy ... posite.PNG
s-video: http://hwm.us.to/famimusic/Upload/Dendy ... SVideo.PNG


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:15 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:36 am
Posts: 2963
Location: Tampere, Finland
Eugene.S wrote:
Here is new, more accurate capturing via AverMedia tuner (thanks to HardWareMan):

Are these shots from a different version of the Dendy PPU than the ones from before? In this case the color generation seems to be the same as in 2C07.

_________________
Download STREEMERZ for NES from fauxgame.com! — Some other stuff I've done: kkfos.aspekt.fi


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:36 am
Posts: 257
Location: Russia
Yes, this is different PPUs

My PPU is:
UMC UA6538
9051-bs
813410
download/file.php?id=1949&mode=view

HWM's PPU:
UMC UA6538
9051-bs
611510
http://hwm.us.to/famimusic/Upload/Dendy ... posite.png

This is so strange. There are similar chips.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:12 pm
Posts: 19114
Location: NE Indiana, USA (NTSC)
Unless different TVs are decoding the signal differently. Could you try the two revisions on the same brand of TV or tuner card?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:05 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:36 am
Posts: 257
Location: Russia
Yes you are right Tepples.
I've just replaced my PPU to 611510 revision, like HardWareMan have.
And my TV shows this picture like 813410 revision


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:22 am 
Online

Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 6291
Location: Seattle
Given the Avermedia pictures, I wonder if plugging a 2C07/Dendy straight into S-video luma would give us enough information to reverse engineer what's going on?

Or maybe there's already enough image in the "Kinopio's test: s-video" picture?

It's a little unfortunate that 13.5 MHz ÷ 4.43MHz is only ≈3. Makes it a little more difficult to determine what's going on solely by inspection instead of rigorous measurement.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:12 am
Posts: 203
I can do more (clickable):
Image
Image
I can disconnect chroma pin to get pure B&W picture with color subcarrier on it, but I think reducing saturation is more than enough. Anyway, these pictures has no most imported part of puzzle: color burst. Because PAL/NTSC decoders adjust their PLL with color burst and then compare phase shift of subcarrier in scanline. So at this pictures we see only relative phase shift between different colors.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:12 pm
Posts: 19114
Location: NE Indiana, USA (NTSC)
I'd like to see how all $1x colors mix with a neutral gray $00 on alternating scanlines. Should I write a quick test ROM for this?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:59 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:36 am
Posts: 257
Location: Russia
Yes, you can write it. I and HardWareMan both have InviteNESes flashcartridges to test it.

P.S:
Unfortunately kinopio's test works very unstable on Dendy timings and often look like this:
http://savepic.su/4311124.htm
We don't have the source code of "nes palette viewer". Kinopio is offline since june 2014.


Attachments:
nes palette captured.zip [7.33 KiB]
Downloaded 79 times


Last edited by Eugene.S on Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:11 am, edited 3 times in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:59 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:12 am
Posts: 203
tepples wrote:
I'd like to see how all $1x colors mix with a neutral gray $00 on alternating scanlines. Should I write a quick test ROM for this?

Yes, please.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PAL chroma merging?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:12 pm
Posts: 19114
Location: NE Indiana, USA (NTSC)
"Your message contains too few characters."


Attachments:
File comment: PAL phase test (NROM-128 binary and source)
palphase-0.01.zip [13.59 KiB]
Downloaded 89 times
File comment: Theoretical output of the program if an RGB PAL NES existed
palphase_ideal_output.png
palphase_ideal_output.png [ 8.53 KiB | Viewed 1803 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 85 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group