Televisions don't like Camerica games EDIT:Ubisoft Indy too?

Discuss technical or other issues relating to programming the Nintendo Entertainment System, Famicom, or compatible systems.

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Dwedit
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Re: Televisions don't like Camerica games

Post by Dwedit » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:14 am

No, because changes to the low frequency register just change the frequency immediately, and don't reset the phase.
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Great Hierophant
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Re: Televisions don't like Camerica games

Post by Great Hierophant » Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:52 am

I have two CRT TVs. One is cheap Sylvania 19" and it is as steady as a rock when it comes to Camerica games, and I have tried them all. Another is a much higher end Toshiba 27" with component and s-video inputs. It will show bendy rasters in several Camerica games and even completely loses sync in the baseball game in Quatro Sports!

Oddly enough, I see bendy rasters in Konami/Ultra's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles with my Toshiba. It always happens when the rollers travel vertically up or down the city screens. Does this game also use the $0D black?

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rainwarrior
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Re: Televisions don't like Camerica games

Post by rainwarrior » Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:22 am

Great Hierophant wrote:Oddly enough, I see bendy rasters in Konami/Ultra's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles with my Toshiba. It always happens when the rollers travel vertically up or down the city screens. Does this game also use the $0D black?
It does, actually, in some of its sprites! I never knew this.

By the way, if you want to answer this question for yourself: open the ROM in FCEUX, go to Debug > PPU Viewer and you can place the mouse over a palette entry to see its value. (Or you could create a palette with a diagnostic colour in place of $0D.)

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Re: Televisions don't like Camerica games

Post by Denine » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:55 pm

Bavi_H wrote:Perhaps Lucas also updated color $0D to $0E while he was making changes.
It was $0E when I got the code. Also, third version of Fantastic Adventures Of Dizzy uses $0E instead of $0D as well.
Looks like that dizzy game needs a sound fix, just like Dizzy the Adventurer.

More specifically, it has the same bug as Dizzy the Adventurer where it resets the phase of the square channels every frame. This is due to unconditional writes to 0x4003 and 0x4007, and results in an annoying 60hz buzzing noise.
Lol, I always thought it was supposed to sound like that, haha...yea, I'm dumb.
Thanks I will update the game one day or another.

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Re: Televisions don't like Camerica games

Post by thefox » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:32 pm

rainwarrior wrote:(Or you could create a palette with a diagnostic colour in place of $0D.)
That's a good idea.

NDX will also print a diagnostic if $0D is used. Changing the palette entry is a better way to find out exactly where the color is used, though.
Denine wrote:
Dwedit wrote:More specifically, it has the same bug as Dizzy the Adventurer where it resets the phase of the square channels every frame. This is due to unconditional writes to 0x4003 and 0x4007, and results in an annoying 60hz buzzing noise.
Lol, I always thought it was supposed to sound like that, haha...yea, I'm dumb.
Thanks I will update the game one day or another.
Well, it is supposed to sound like that (i.e. pretty bad), that's how they made it. Any kind of a fix is completely subjective. (In this specific case I wouldn't fault anybody for wanting it to be changed, though. :))
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rainwarrior
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Re: Televisions don't like Camerica games

Post by rainwarrior » Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:07 pm

Dizzy the Adventurer did the same thing. The constant terrible 60hz buzz is the authentic Dizzy sound. ;)

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Dwedit
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Re: Televisions don't like Camerica games

Post by Dwedit » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:35 pm

Back to the original topic (color 0D)
If you want to test out the Blacker than Black color with emphasis bits set for all colors, and have a Game Genie and a copy of Super Mario Bros, here are two codes:

(edited for 8 letter codes, compatible with the SMB/Duck Hunt cartridge)

IESAAIZX (sky color is 0D)
VNOEIETO (set all emphasis bits)

On my TV, 0D with emphasis bits works fine, it's just a nice deep shade of black, whereas regular black is a darker gray. But other TVs are obviously not so lucky.
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rainwarrior
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Re: Televisions don't like Camerica games

Post by rainwarrior » Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:43 pm

The Game Genie itself will give you $0D as its background already.

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mikejmoffitt
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Re: Televisions don't like Camerica games

Post by mikejmoffitt » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:15 pm

rainwarrior wrote:Dizzy the Adventurer did the same thing. The constant terrible 60hz buzz is the authentic Dizzy sound. ;)
It's remarkable that it got programmed that way, and the programmer thought, "Yes, this is fine" and anybody else also agreed before release.

Interestingly, it does not affect the sound effects.

--

It would be good to make an annotated list of games that use $0D and where.

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Re: Televisions don't like Camerica games

Post by Vectrex2809 » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:31 am

Dwedit wrote:Back to the original topic (color 0D)
If you want to test out the Blacker than Black color with emphasis bits set for all colors, and have a Game Genie and a copy of Super Mario Bros, here are two codes:

(edited for 8 letter codes, compatible with the SMB/Duck Hunt cartridge)

IESAAIZX (sky color is 0D)
VNOEIETO (set all emphasis bits)

On my TV, 0D with emphasis bits works fine, it's just a nice deep shade of black, whereas regular black is a darker gray. But other TVs are obviously not so lucky.
I think my TV's gonna beg for mercy tonight. Gonna check that out, even though the Game Genie was made by - you guessed it - my good old friends Codemasters/Camerica, and might be slightly glitched on my TV already. Will post pics. Also, I agree with the idea of making a list. Sonce most licensed devs would know about the glitch I assume, it would be fun to check out the more obscure unlicensed games.

EDIT: Tried that, but there's no problem with having it on the background with and without emphasis for some reason.

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Vectrex2809
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Breaking news!

Post by Vectrex2809 » Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:01 am

Breaking news: Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (UBI version) might have the same glitch, which is interesting since this one is a licensed game. Terrible, yes, but licensed.
Luckily, I have one coming in the mail, and I should get it next week to test out. Anyone with a copy could test it on their TV to see the result?

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Re: Televisions don't like Camerica games EDIT:Ubisoft Indy

Post by thefox » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:22 am

There are other licensed games that use $0D also. Immortal is one of them (and it also glitches out on my TV.)
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Dwedit
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Re: Televisions don't like Camerica games EDIT:Ubisoft Indy

Post by Dwedit » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:50 am

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (UBI Soft) is an awful Gameboy to NES port. Why does use of the invalid 0D color not surprise me in the least?
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Re: Televisions don't like Camerica games EDIT:Ubisoft Indy

Post by Great Hierophant » Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:38 pm

I did not notice anything unusual with The Immortal or Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade from Ubi Soft, but the Game Genie codes in SMB/DK did produce a jumpy effect on the title screen and some other areas on my TV.

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Re: Televisions don't like Camerica games EDIT:Ubisoft Indy

Post by whicker » Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:47 pm

I'm hoping everyone understands why "blacker than black" is a problem...
It's because it looks like a sync pulse-- The pulse that tells the electron beam to go back to the left side of the screen or to the top-left of the screen.


Successful CRT televisions in general had to be very tolerant of noisy, out of spec signals because of those dastardly battery powered VHS camcorders that were pervasive during the 1980's-90's. There's so much that needs to go on and not enough room to do it exactly right based on the technology of the time. Plus we're talking a mechanical tape feed that is subject to wobble and actual stretching of the recording material. So the played back signal is going into unsafe ranges constantly. The family that bought their shiny new top-of-the-line (ultimately piece of crap, heavy NiCad battery powered, belt driven, DC brush motor, power sucking, overheating) camcorder is not going to blame the brand-new camcorder, but complain to the TV manufacturer that it doesn't display correctly. The picture is stable in the viewfinder, it must be the TV, they'd (correctly) say.

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