It is currently Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:31 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 134 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 12:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:12 pm
Posts: 19326
Location: NE Indiana, USA (NTSC)
Konami UNROM has the PRG ROM going up and down as opposed to across the board, which leaves more space for a 32-pin mod. The seven released NES games using this are some (not all) copies of Blades of Steel, Double Dribble, Jack Nicklaus, Life Force, Metal Gear, Silent Service, and Skate or Die. Do these have Nintendo pinout or EPROM pinout?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 6503
Location: Seattle
I think the rework in http://bootgod.dyndns.org:7777/profile.php?id=4618 answers your question for you.

(translation: No address lines have been changed to make an UVEPROM work there)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:34 pm
Posts: 296
Location: Germany
Sweet, good to know. Might come in handy for future uses. Thanks!

@Frank:
I thought it was Famicom exclusive since I never saw that kind of board yet and don't have all mappers and board layouts in my head. No reason to get rude there. >_>

Yeah, just checked again. It's only USA and Japan releases. I'm in Europe. We don't have those boards. So I'm stuck with shell modding along with other European people who do not want to import USA games just for that to avoid shell modding.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:27 pm
Posts: 141
tepples wrote:
Konami UNROM has the PRG ROM going up and down as opposed to across the board, which leaves more space for a 32-pin mod. The seven released NES games using this are some (not all) copies of Blades of Steel, Double Dribble, Jack Nicklaus, Life Force, Metal Gear, Silent Service, and Skate or Die. Do these have Nintendo pinout or EPROM pinout?


I swear I've found Top Guns like this too, but I don't have any on hand atm. That might be me misremembering. But I want to say bootgood hasn't had all the titles I've found that use Konami boards. They use Nintendo-prg layout for sure though.

sort of interesting side note: some of these carts use a Konami branded chip for chr-ram that only has a single chip enable line instead of /CE1 and CE2 like standard chips.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:19 pm
Posts: 81
FrankWDoom wrote:
I swear I've found Top Guns like this too, but I don't have any on hand atm.

It is. The UNROM Konami with a white 24 on back label do.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 8:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:12 pm
Posts: 19326
Location: NE Indiana, USA (NTSC)
Do you have a Deadly Towers you want to get rid of? Now you can destroy it to make a 240pee. This repack includes a mapper hack to BNROM, otherwise leaving the program unchanged. And if you have a game that's common but Rare, it's trivial to mod any AxROM board to BNROM: cut the mirroring trace from the 74HC161 and wire it to PA10. Merry Christmas!

0.08.2 (2015-12-25)
  • Includes a BNROM mapper hack produced by mirroring the fixed bank into the top half of both 32K banks
  • making-carts.md: Mentions less rework needed for Konami "24" boards (requested by FrankWDoom)


Attachments:
240pee-0.08.2.zip [172.25 KiB]
Downloaded 195 times
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:36 am
Posts: 260
Location: Russia
I've found this test just now.
Test on real 6527P/6538 dendy shows:

cycles/line: 113.6
lines/frame: 312
NMI scanline: 291
TV System: PAL
Frame Rate: 50.01
CPU Speed: 1.775

Do i need anything else?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:12 pm
Posts: 19326
Location: NE Indiana, USA (NTSC)
Thank you. Exactly as expected.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:36 am
Posts: 260
Location: Russia
I think now we have almost complete info about Hybrid PAL Famiclones like "Dendy" / "MicroGenius" / "Subor" / "Pegasus" - hundreds of brands worldwide.
So this text on wiki is not relevant for now:
Quote:
Because not many people in the English-speaking NESdev community have a Dendy, its precise differences from the authentic Nintendo hardware are not completely understood, and the values above are partly conjecture.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 6503
Location: Seattle
Since you've already got it set up, could you run the Overscan test (second page)? (The 2C02 displays a 256x240 picture, while the 2C07 displays a 252x239 picture)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:36 am
Posts: 260
Location: Russia
https://youtu.be/ir2UyvgM1i8
Now i've understand how it works.
Values before white borders will be visible:

top: 1 pix (0.4%)
bottom: 0 pix (0%)
left: 2 pix (0.7%)
right: 2 pix (0.7%)

Seems it like PAL


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:45 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:12 am
Posts: 203
There are no "overscan" at all. It was invented by sales managers. To sell more advanced TVs to those who already have a good ones. Let me explain.

For example, there is PAL standard. It quietly sure describes all timings. You should keep it in mind, that CVBS transmits by serial manner. So, PAL standard describes:
Quote:
Active video (D) in one line: 51.95 (+0.4/−0.1) µs
Vertical visible lines: 288 (576 total because of interlace)

So, all devices that claim to support the PAL must comply with these rules. But we have two operating side: the signal source and the TV itself. TV also must comply with this rules, but only at CVBS input. What we see on the screen is completely depends on TV specific instance. Even if it is to similar models in same batch they can be different (by semiconductor parts, by CRT or something else). Thus, the television itself, and its final adjustment will mainly affect what you see. Since there is many of different kind TVs, TV crew invent Safe Area.

Back to subject. I captured CVBS from UA6538 by high speed ADC (@250MS/s) and build this picture (clickable, huge!):
Image
As you can see, it contains at least 3 full frames (fields). Black bar at left side is HSync. Gray level is a black level for picture (any sync must be darker that black). Also you can clearly see VSync between frames. And this picture completely comply with PAL standard.

Conclusion. Your "overscan" test in fact testing TV itself, because UA6538 PPU don't violate PAL standard. And you will get different result from TV to TV. The older will be the TV (or with malfunction), the less Safe Area you will see. I believe that it is fair and for NTSC.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:08 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:12 pm
Posts: 19326
Location: NE Indiana, USA (NTSC)
HardWareMan wrote:
There are no "overscan" at all. It was invented by sales managers. To sell more advanced TVs to those who already have a good ones. Let me explain.

For example, there is PAL standard. It quietly sure describes all timings. You should keep it in mind, that CVBS transmits by serial manner. So, PAL standard describes:
Quote:
Active video (D) in one line: 51.95 (+0.4/−0.1) µs
Vertical visible lines: 288 (576 total because of interlace)


This 51.95 µs isn't very different from NTSC's 52.148.

The PAL NES and PAL famiclone pixel clock is the 26.6017125 MHz master clock divided by five. At this rate, 252 pixels would be 252*5/26.6017125 = 47.37 µs, which is less than the 51.95 µs that you quoted. If the PPU didn't crop off the two pixels at far left and right, it'd still be 256*5/26.6017125 = 48.12 µs.

Quote:
Back to subject. I captured CVBS from UA6538 by high speed ADC (@250MS/s) and build this picture (clickable, huge!):
Image

Is it OK for us to back that picture up on the wiki for use when testing software PAL decoder implementations?

Quote:
Conclusion. Your "overscan" test in fact testing TV itself

On NTSC, that is its intent.
In the test's help page, tepples wrote:
With this pattern you can discover how much of the picture edge your TV hides.

Historically, CRT TVs have been calibrated to "overscan", or draw the picture slightly past the visible area, in case aging capacitors cause the picture to shrink over time.

One of the TVs that I bought from a thrift shop had so much overscan it made the PowerPak hard to use. In fact, it was very close to the worst case that Nintendo anticipated in its background planning sheets (16 on the sides, 24 on the top and bottom). It's an Apex, and I can dig out the model number if you think you can help me find a means of adjustment.

On PAL, it's mainly to demonstrate that the PPU itself crops 2 pixels off the left and right and 1 scanline off the top.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:12 am
Posts: 203
tepples wrote:
Is it OK for us to back that picture up on the wiki for use when testing software PAL decoder implementations?

Sure. Also there is 250MHz sharpen version and 500MHz version (only one full frame).
tepples wrote:
One of the TVs that I bought from a thrift shop had so much overscan it made the PowerPak hard to use. In fact, it was very close to the worst case that Nintendo anticipated in its background planning sheets (16 on the sides, 24 on the top and bottom). It's an Apex, and I can dig out the model number if you think you can help me find a means of adjustment.

Sure I can try to help you to adjust your TV.
tepples wrote:
On PAL, it's mainly to demonstrate that the PPU itself crops 2 pixels off the left and right and 1 scanline off the top.

Hmm, never knew that. Since TV tuner doesn't have any "overscan" (like also any non CRT TV does) your words is true:
Image
So, with BreakNes result I can build PPU clone that will rid off this limitation.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:12 pm
Posts: 19326
Location: NE Indiana, USA (NTSC)
HardWareMan wrote:
tepples wrote:
Is it OK for us to back that picture up on the wiki for use when testing software PAL decoder implementations?

Sure.

Thanks. I've uploaded it (and a version downsampled to 53.2 MHz, twice the master clock) as examples for the new article PAL video.

HardWareMan wrote:
tepples wrote:
One of the TVs that I bought from a thrift shop had so much overscan it made the PowerPak hard to use. In fact, it was very close to the worst case that Nintendo anticipated in its background planning sheets (16 on the sides, 24 on the top and bottom). It's an Apex, and I can dig out the model number if you think you can help me find a means of adjustment.

Sure I can try to help you to adjust your TV.

It's an Apex AT2408, which I bought used without a remote. I vaguely remember finding service menu-related information a couple months ago, but it requires the use of a remote.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 134 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group