It is currently Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:31 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:43 pm
Posts: 10164
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
HVC-Man wrote:
While we're on the subject, who founded NesDev?

AFAIK, Memblers started the forums. Before that we had the mailing list (back then I didn't even post as tokumaru!), but I have no idea who created that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:04 pm
Posts: 950
dougeff wrote:
I agree with […] rainwarrior. Don't split topics unnecessarily.

But that's not what rainwarrior's position is.
I'm categorically object to all splits.

HVC-Man wrote:
You would think after being a user here since 2004, everyone else here would recognize the antics of Bregalad (and also 3gengames).

Can't we all just kiss and make up?

It takes a while for "antics" to sink in for new users, unless they're in the habit of looking at old threads. (Usually, derailed threads are not ones that users* are going to want to go back to.)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:04 pm
Posts: 950
Double-posting for ease of the split I think should happen.
dougeff wrote:
Most RPGs have at least 2 modes, overhead walking, and in battle mode.
Many also have mini-games.

I was going to rebut this by pointing out that usually, loss could not happen in overhead-walking-mode (making it technically not a "game" mode on its own), but that's just not true; Dragon Warrior's swamp/barrier tiles are a loss opportunity, for instance.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:37 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:04 am
Posts: 3487
Location: Indianapolis
tokumaru wrote:
HVC-Man wrote:
While we're on the subject, who founded NesDev?

AFAIK, Memblers started the forums. Before that we had the mailing list (back then I didn't even post as tokumaru!), but I have no idea who created that.


I think it was Mark Knibbs who started the mailing list, maybe?

Technically, the forums were started by koitsu and wouldn't have existed so soon otherwise, but I guess I can take credit for asking him to set it up, heheh. I knew (roughly) how to edit an .htm file and upload stuff via FTP, and that was the extent of my capabilities as a "webmaster".

I did start the NESdev site itself back in 1996 or so, it lived on Geocities for maybe a couple years before koitsu offered to host it. I still remember the URL, Athens/Olympus/2077/nes/nes.htm, which is too old to be on archive.org (they only saved the "we've moved" message).

edit: If you want to see an example of how it looked (those link colors!), at least this portion of the site remains online: http://wayback.archive.org/web/20091022232321/http://geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/2077/nes/nesm/nesm.htm


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:48 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:54 pm
Posts: 41
Wow, that is quite a trip back. I didn't realize NesDev reach so far back. Then again there was Nesticle and it was a DOS program. Thing is almost nothing related to ROMs and homebrew from the 90s still exists today, it's hard for us new guys to understand.

Was anybody actually coding demos and stuff for the NES while new games were still being released? I mean in the NesDev sense, not pirate groups.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:14 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:28 pm
Posts: 3192
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
HVC-Man wrote:
Wow, that is quite a trip back. I didn't realize NesDev reach so far back. Then again there was Nesticle and it was a DOS program. Thing is almost nothing related to ROMs and homebrew from the 90s still exists today, it's hard for us new guys to understand.

What would you like to understand? I was around for all of this (since 1991 onward), in both the snesdev and nesdev scenes. snesdev came first (early 90s, 1991 or thereabouts), nesdev came later with the introduction of emulation really gaining traction (roughly late 1996). SNES console copiers becoming available in the States through grey-market means was the main reason snesdev came first -- despite being expensive, they were some of the the first mainstream ways to get code you wrote running on the console.

Almost all first tools and things for nesdev-related (including emulators) were MS-DOS. The only thing I knew of at the time which was Windows-based was the Japanese shareware Famicom/NES emulator called PasoWing or PasoFami (the "Wing" part refers to WinG) -- the emulator which would delete your entire C:\WINDOWS directory if it found you had a pirated copy (or maybe that was Super PasoFami (same author to my knowledge, and was for SFC/SNES)). NESticle was one of the first "revolutionary" NES emulators because it offered a friendly GUI and had several games working on it that other emulators didn't, including things like Gravis joypad support, and it also worked within Windows 9x (and would in later Windows releases sans the sound, due to the sound code interfacing with Soundblaster cards directly (there was no real API, you talked to it directly via I/O ports through in and out x86 opcodes; Windows NT and later blocked direct I/O access)); the first emulator which I saw that contained amazing NES accuracy was loopynes (loopy's NES emulator), circa super late 1997 or early 1998 I think.

Not bragging or tooting my own horn, but Parodius Networking was an extremely important service provider during all of that (we hosted large numbers of emulation sites, including official homepages for NESticle and Genecyst, NESWorld, the nesdev site and later forum per Memblers, Archaic Ruins, Donut/The Whirlpool (more romhacking-oriented but still important), and several others). The late 90s were a very pivotal time for nesdev in general.

HVC-Man wrote:
Was anybody actually coding demos and stuff for the NES while new games were still being released? I mean in the NesDev sense, not pirate groups.

Not that I know of, at least in the United States. It wasn't until emulation really took off that it began; Alex Krasivsky (Landy) and Marat Fayzullin (RST38h) were two of the first people I know of to ever talk to me about NES/Famicom stuff, esp. Alex (who I still talk to today!).

I suspect FamicomDev was going on in Japan during the very early 90s, as they had Family BASIC (which I do consider a valid form of homebrew), and I remember at least one person showing me old issues of Famitsu where there were some weird homebrew efforts shown (my memory here is sketchy though). I imagine there must have been some kind of floppy-based copier at that point; I never quite figured out what the "original" Wild Card copier was; the Super Wild Card series were all for SNES, implying there might have been a Famicom copier in Asia that could've been used for early development. This is speculation on my part though.

I would strongly suggest picking up a copy of Nathan Altice's "I AM ERROR", which is a wonderful book which goes into the history of the NES/Famicom in general, including touching base on early emulation days (which is not directly the focus of the book, but it's an important aspect). Many of the people cited as references in the book are here on the forum.

An entire separate book or documentary could be done just about emulation, but it would be impossible to do for "all" emulation history. Each one would have to be about a specific console or genre; NES/Famicom vs. SNES/SFC vs. TG16/PCE vs. SMS vs. Playstation etc.. All the scenes were separate and independent from one another. There are several of us "historians" left; most of us are in our super late 30s or early-to-mid 40s (I'm 39).

If you have emulation history questions, I'd like to ask that a separate thread be created for that, as it truly does warrant its own discussion.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:37 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:04 am
Posts: 3487
Location: Indianapolis
As far as I know, the first NESdev-style demo (ROM with source) was junkdemo and later Mouser by Tony Young. Those were the files that got me interested in trying some NES programming and realizing that it was actual possibility. I remember I found it on some site called Game Builders, after that site disappeared I started making the NESdev webpage (can't bring myself to call it a 'site' at that point, heh).

I still have my own personal hack of Mouser that I did called Satanizer, I changed the music and graphics. What's funny is that I actually lost all the files on my old computer, but I still have that because I posted it on usenet. Later on I requested it there, and someone actually had it. :lol: Speaking of usenet, that was how I found out about emulation in the first place, from viewing the list of usenet groups.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 5:49 am
Posts: 923
Location: Sweden
Very interesting history lesson. I got the impression that copiers for Famicom was mostly those FDS copiers that converts mapper 0 games to FDS disks. And the Fami-Corder that takes EPROM-based carts, and is also able to copy some mapper 0 games.

Myask wrote:
dougeff wrote:
Most RPGs have at least 2 modes, overhead walking, and in battle mode.
Many also have mini-games.

I was going to rebut this by pointing out that usually, loss could not happen in overhead-walking-mode (making it technically not a "game" mode on its own), but that's just not true; Dragon Warrior's swamp/barrier tiles are a loss opportunity, for instance.

The overhead walkabout mode in those RPGs is not only required to advance the plot or trigger events, besides possible loss from poison swamps and traps, it also forces the player to take decisions that may indirectly result in loss. For example risking more random encounters by grabbing treasure chests, using healing and other spells (direct loss of MP) and deciding when to go back to rest in an inn and so on.

But if loss is a requirement for a definition of "game", then many adventure games wouldn't be games. Many adventures doesn't even have a Game Over (e.g. Portopia if I remember correctly), the only possible loss in those games would be that the player fails to realize what to do to advance in the game. But I think most people would still consider them to be games.

I'd agree that those Visual Novels that all you do is press a button to advance the text aren't really games though, except for the few interactive parts, SRPG modes or other such things that they may or may not have. But the main part of those adventures are really electronic novels.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:08 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:49 pm
Posts: 7314
Location: Chexbres, VD, Switzerland
Quote:
But if loss is a requirement for a definition of "game", then many adventure games wouldn't be games. Many adventures doesn't even have a Game Over (e.g. Portopia if I remember correctly), the only possible loss in those games would be that the player fails to realize what to do to advance in the game. But I think most people would still consider them to be games.

I don't know so many different video games overall, but I think unloosable games aren't all that uncommon. Mist and Riven (both Mac/PC platform) comes to mind, as well as Wario World II and III on the Game Boy Color. Actually I never completed any stage in Wario III, I never figured what I was supposed to do. I was also stuck at some point in Wario II, and bosses are extremely though/frustrating, any tiny error, and you'll have to start them all over again.

Indeed Portopia cannot be lost against, but you can get stuck, just like in all the other mentionned games.

I'll also mention that many games, such as Tetris, are loosable, but are unwinnable. I personally don't like the concept, because it's really un-rewarding.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:34 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 5:49 am
Posts: 923
Location: Sweden
Yeah there are lots non-loosable games like this (Wario looses coins when hit though). And non-winnable (I like to play B-Type so I can win :)).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:57 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:12 pm
Posts: 19335
Location: NE Indiana, USA (NTSC)
B-Type is winnable. Since then, it's evolved into "speedrunning 40 lines," a common challenge among fans of modern Tetris.

A-Type is winnable too in a sense: speedrun 100,000 points (first rocket), 200,000 points (second rocket), or 999,999 points (the cap).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:04 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:43 pm
Posts: 10164
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
Bregalad wrote:
Mist and Riven (both Mac/PC platform) comes to mind, as well as Wario World II and III on the Game Boy Color. Actually I never completed any stage in Wario III, I never figured what I was supposed to do. I was also stuck at some point in Wario II, and bosses are extremely though/frustrating, any tiny error, and you'll have to start them all over again.

I love Wario Land 2 and 3, they're among my favorite games of all time. I was quite surprised when I realized they were platformers with no health or lives, and I really enjoyed the different approach.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:09 am
Posts: 297
You can get killed in Riven. And there are two 'bad ends' in Myst as well. Pretty sure they both just blank the screen until you start a new game, but that's a game over, right?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:16 am
Posts: 601
Screw the "win/loss is mandatory for it to be a game". I'm with Molydeux, it's not a game unless it makes you cry.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:26 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:49 pm
Posts: 7314
Location: Chexbres, VD, Switzerland
Rahsennor wrote:
You can get killed in Riven. And there are two 'bad ends' in Myst as well. Pretty sure they both just blank the screen until you start a new game, but that's a game over, right?

Myst have to bad endings, but you can restart just before and get the good ending by giving the white book to neither of the two bad guys. Riven you cannot get killed, but you can be trapped in an empty room. It's however clearly stated in the game that this is a trap book and that you have to use it against a vilain - so it's not a "trap" like the bad endings of Myst. However, if I remember well, you *can* save after being trapped in the empty room, and if you do so, well too bad, you have to resort to a backup save, potentially loosing progress.

I find many exampes of either unwinnable or unloosable games, but I wonder wether there is a game which is neither winnable nor loosable, but is still unambigiously a video game.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group