fine-attribute images?

A place for your artistic side. Discuss techniques and tools for pixel art on the NES, GBC, or similar platforms.

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Myask
Posts: 965
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:04 pm

fine-attribute images?

Post by Myask »

Has anyone bothered yet to create things that would look better with 8x1(-7) attribute grain than 8x8?
psycopathicteen
Posts: 3140
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 6:12 pm

Re: fine-attribute images?

Post by psycopathicteen »

I guess I can start working on something.
User avatar
rainwarrior
Posts: 8734
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:03 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: fine-attribute images?

Post by rainwarrior »

This isn't NES but your question reminds me of the "macrocom" method of using scanline slivers for more detailed CGA graphics:
http://8088mph.blogspot.ca/2015/04/cga- ... com_method

Also thefox made a tool a while back that did 16 x 8 attribute regions (though I think it may have been configurable for narrower?)
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7363
User avatar
FrankenGraphics
Formerly WheelInventor
Posts: 2064
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:55 am
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Contact:

Re: fine-attribute images?

Post by FrankenGraphics »

Where there a topic prior to this?
User avatar
rainwarrior
Posts: 8734
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:03 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: fine-attribute images?

Post by rainwarrior »

I also found this proof of concept by lidnariq:
viewtopic.php?p=113253#p113253
User avatar
Dwedit
Posts: 4924
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:35 pm
Contact:

Re: fine-attribute images?

Post by Dwedit »

A 16x8 attribute table is much easier to pull off than a 8x1 attribute table. 16x8 can be done in pure software (possibly with added IRQ) over the entire two built-in nametables.
Here come the fortune cookies! Here come the fortune cookies! They're wearing paper hats!
User avatar
tokumaru
Posts: 12427
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:43 pm
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

Re: fine-attribute images?

Post by tokumaru »

Dwedit wrote:A 16x8 attribute table is much easier to pull off than a 8x1 attribute table.
Sure, but there's a great discrepancy between 16x8 and 8x1... 8x1 is like, 16 times finer than 16x8.

Sadly that flower image posted by lidnariq looks like a bad proof of concept, seeing as the screen is mostly just yellow, with weird green stripes that look more like VHS noise (i.e. the added detail makes the image look WORSE).
lidnariq
Posts: 11432
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:12 am

Re: fine-attribute images?

Post by lidnariq »

Unfortunately, I am not an artist, and any attribute zone of any size make any automated conversion a total PITA. (I even tried your heuristic of "quantize to four colors, then mask and quantize each layer to three colors" and it really didn't work)

But if anyone has any skill with art wants to figure out how to draw things with 16x1 attribute zones, loading new data into the display program is easy.

(P.S. it's an aloe. Your misidentification assuredly says more about how terrible the conversion is.)
tepples
Posts: 22708
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:12 pm
Location: NE Indiana, USA (NTSC)
Contact:

Re: fine-attribute images?

Post by tepples »

Perhaps try converting some of the better MSX art. The TMS9918A attribute model isn't quite the same as that of the NES using a hypothetical super-mapper, but it does have the 8x1 pixel slivers.
User avatar
tokumaru
Posts: 12427
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:43 pm
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

Re: fine-attribute images?

Post by tokumaru »

lidnariq wrote:Unfortunately, I am not an artist, and any attribute zone of any size make any automated conversion a total PITA.
Yeah, I'm not blaming you for the result. I'm no expert in image processing either, so it's not​ surprising that my method wasn't of much help.
But if anyone has any skill with art wants to figure out how to draw things with 16x1 attribute zones, loading new data into the display program is easy.
I would personally love to see something that made full use of the extended attributes. Maybe something hand-made will turn out better than photographs, because even with better attribute resolution the hardware is still too weak for that.
(P.S. it's an aloe. Your misidentification assuredly says more about how terrible the conversion is.)
Or it's just evidence of my total lack of botanical knowledge... :mrgreen:
User avatar
FrankenGraphics
Formerly WheelInventor
Posts: 2064
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:55 am
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Contact:

Re: fine-attribute images?

Post by FrankenGraphics »

16 times finer than 16x8
I think you get more mileage per increase by having a 16x8 or 8x8 granularity (since 8x8 is the character format). 16 or 8x1 is however pushing the boundaries, i guess that's the whole point?

Something hand drawn will look better. I think the key may be not overusing it. In the aloe vera picture, you see the grid at every border. Assume a coarser grid and then exploit it where you can for some nice details.

Or if you want to convert a photo, you still may have some luck with either posterizing and retouching a grayscale, then apply attributes, or you can trace it in Illustrator and then convert the result back to a bitmap. A lot of time will be spent doing so, though, and autotrace never looks good, so maybe pixel painting directly over the picture will pay off better. And you'd probably still need to use sprites for finer differently coloured details to make the most of it.
User avatar
Bregalad
Posts: 8056
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:49 pm
Location: Divonne-les-bains, France

Re: fine-attribute images?

Post by Bregalad »

Dwedit wrote:A 16x8 attribute table is much easier to pull off than a 8x1 attribute table. 16x8 can be done in pure software (possibly with added IRQ) over the entire two built-in nametables.
Even 16x4, 16x2 or 16x1 could be done in pure software as long as we'd be reduced to a small part of the screen. For example we could imagine a title screen or a logo screen using such a technique - turning BG rendering off for most of the screen and use all (or a very large part) of the available nametable area to draw a small logo with better colours. You can get 15 tiles height (120 px) of 16x4 attributes, 7.5 tiles height (60 px) of 16x2 attributes or 3.75 tiles high (30 px) of 16x1 attributes in pure software - add RAM for 4-screen mirroring and you can get double of each.

The OP mentionned 8x7 but I don't see how it would be any practical nor feasible to have a non-power-of-2 attribute granularity. Irregular granularity (such as 3-3-2 in each tile) would be feasible though.

In practice this was almost never done because attribute table limitations are hardly the bottleneck of what can be done with NES graphics - i.e. you'll never be able to represent something with smaller colour granularity than you couldn't represent with less, it'll just look slightly better. On the other hand, more colours per tile done by overlapping sprites is a much more interesting option, so that's why NES games went that way to increase the graphics quality.
User avatar
Myask
Posts: 965
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:04 pm

Re: fine-attribute images?

Post by Myask »

Well, I just meant <8. So, practically, 8x4, x2, x1. (There's nothing *stopping* you from doing 8x7 cartside, but it'd be a pain.)

Some thought suggested that acting like it's 8x8 and then using the slivers to get some wiggle room on edges where you need a few more or fewer pixels of one color seems like the best use of a theoretical 8x1 (shallow slopes) rather than any picture actually needing to switch on a sliver and switch back the next down.
User avatar
FrankenGraphics
Formerly WheelInventor
Posts: 2064
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:55 am
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Contact:

Re: fine-attribute images?

Post by FrankenGraphics »

That's right. A symmetrical ratio (16x16, 8x8) is easier to hide, so in the case of a 8x1 ratio or the like, moderate use of the fact will probably yield better looking results. Think of every change of attribute between one cell and the next as a potential grid shower. If just about every cell is different, you end up with what looks like paused tape noise, getting in the way of the picture.

Just apply it here and there, where it looks the most convincing and/or to sometimes break the coarser x8 base act-as-grid.

You could for example use three to five 8x1 slivers on top of each other to colour a tuft of grass hanging down in front of ground or rock, approximating next generation graphics.
Post Reply