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 Post subject: Re: Action 53 volume 3
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 11:09 pm 
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mikejmoffitt wrote:
if nobody has said otherwise, it's safe to assume that it's inappropriate for the context, not the other way around. I can not think of any contexts where it's a safe assumption otherwise.


Yet a game about shooting people/yourself in the face with a realistic gun is not a safe assumption? I'm gonna make a bold assumption that you're probably also American. :P As rainwarrior and tokumaru already pointed out in the 2017 planning thread, you gotta remember that you probably have a very subjective assumption of these things based on your region and upbringing (as do I).
In most parts of the world, nudity or even straight up sex is not considered offensive, explicit nor inappropriate for children. That said, oversexualization of women could often be considered offensive for completely different reasons.

Of course, I'd agree that you can usually guess when you should leave out a lot of these things, but you can't assume that everyone has the same insight in American rating systems. It's still baffling to me that "goddamn" would be offensive, despite my heavy exposure to American culture.
I don't really think there's a problem with the way it worked in this compo, it's not like it's a big problem to remove these things. As long as participants are warned in due time so it doesn't have to affect the judging.


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 Post subject: Re: Action 53 volume 3
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 11:40 pm 
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Sumez wrote:
As rainwarrior and tokumaru already pointed out in the 2017 planning thread, you gotta remember that you probably have a very subjective assumption of these things based on your region and upbringing (as do I).

Yes, but in that post you are referring to my main point was that as its publisher infiniteneslives needs to have the executive control over it.

I wasn't making any point about his concerns being more or less valid because they are subjective. He's the one making and distributing it, so the things subject to him are what matter. If you've got additional concerns that you think he's missing, by all means point them out, but noting that they are subjective concerns doesn't dissolve their relevance to the subject.


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 Post subject: Re: Action 53 volume 3
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 12:36 am 
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mikejmoffitt wrote:
na_th_an [...] "can you not use this community project as an excuse to share drawings of your favorite body parts?"


I find this asumption mildly offensive, for example ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Action 53 volume 3
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 2:00 am 
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Sumez wrote:
Yet a game about shooting people/yourself in the face with a realistic gun is not a safe assumption? I'm gonna make a bold assumption that you're probably also American. :P

Who mentioned a game about shooting people in the face with a realistic gun? I wouldn't defend such a game for inclusion either, as that's pretty explicit. I don't care for guns, I've never held a firearm, and I don't plan on it, but thanks for the generalization.

Like it or not, the NES's largest audience was North America, and I'd expect that to still be the case (though the homebrew scene has certainly globalized the platform and moved the scale a bit). If sensitivity towards the audience is something to be considered, applying the (expected) sensibilities of the (expected) audience is not an unreasonable thing to do.

I also think being concerned over goddamn is being a little extra-sensitive, but given INL's concerns, it's changing very little for better peace of mind.
Sumez wrote:
Yet a game about shooting people/yourself in the face with a realistic gun is not a safe assumption? I'm gonna make a bold assumption that you're probably also American. :P

Who mentioned a game about shooting people in the face with a realistic gun? I wouldn't defend such a game for inclusion either, as that's pretty explicit. I don't care for guns, I've never held a firearm, and I don't plan on it, but thanks for the generalization.

Like it or not, the NES's largest audience was North America, and I'd expect that to still be the case (though the homebrew scene has certainly globalized the platform and moved the scale a bit). If sensitivity towards the audience is something to be considered, applying the (expected) sensibilities of the (expected) audience is not an unreasonable thing to do.

I also think being concerned over goddamn is being a little extra-sensitive, but given INL's concerns, it's changing very little for better peace of mind.

na_th_an wrote:
mikejmoffitt wrote:
na_th_an [...] "can you not use this community project as an excuse to share drawings of your favorite body parts?"


I find this asumption mildly offensive, for example ;)

My irritation in my previous post was mostly directed at Alp's post, which read as being overly dramatic. Your game is not really an example of the out-of-place sexualization I am irritated with.


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 Post subject: Re: Action 53 volume 3
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 2:53 am 
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rainwarrior wrote:
I wasn't making any point about his concerns being more or less valid because they are subjective.

Well, neither am I. I thought I made that pretty clear.

mikejmoffitt wrote:
Who mentioned a game about shooting people in the face with a realistic gun? I wouldn't defend such a game for inclusion either, as that's pretty explicit.

My apologies, apparently the game is a "category 2" game which means it's not eligable for the multicart, so my point is moot. This was the one I was thinking about (very bottom of the page):
http://nesdevcompo.nintendoage.com/contest16/

Quote:
Like it or not, the NES's largest audience was North America, and I'd expect that to still be the case (though the homebrew scene has certainly globalized the platform and moved the scale a bit).

Those are two very broad assumptions :P
I won't argue that the NES sold more in North America than anywhere else, but Japan was a very close second, and comparatively a much smaller country. You also can't deny that the NES was -huge- in Europe, and on the "retro" scene, it still is. I just returned from a "retro game fair" in Sweden last weekend, which had roughly 4000 attendants, and the NES was by far the most represented platform.
Also, I highly doubt the homebrew scene has changed anything. If the weights are being shifted recently, it's probably more likely due to emulation and YouTube. In the end though, nostalgia and historic importance is still the system's biggest claim to fame.

All this is completely off-topic of course. In the end I don't think we really disagree about anything in regards to how A53 is produced, and it's not like my opinion should matter anyway.


Btw, now I'm really curious about what alp's game was :)


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 Post subject: Re: Action 53 volume 3
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 3:13 am 
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Sumez wrote:
Btw, now I'm really curious about what alp's game was :)

Furry shemales, if memory serves me right.


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 Post subject: Re: Action 53 volume 3
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 8:27 am 
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mikejmoffitt wrote:
This is a tough call to make, especially after the fact, but if anyone chooses to use a nude or sexualized character they knew what they were in for from the start.

Complaining in this melodramatic way about censorship isn't going to garner much sympathy; it's not like this kind of change is a violation of one's rights or some serious offense. Nobody said to na_th_an, "you can't make your game with a nude character ever", just that it is not appropriate for the multi-cart. It's just asking "can you not use this community project as an excuse to share drawings of your favorite body parts?"

I guess you can argue that the expectations were not made clear in the beginning, but if nobody has said otherwise, it's safe to assume that it's inappropriate for the context, not the other way around. I can not think of any contexts where it's a safe assumption otherwise.

You're missing the point. It's the principle of the thing, censorship is slippery slope to fall into, and if a game with tasteful nudity isn't okay, but a game containing obvious suicide is, then a cute game with a girl throwing veggies at monsters is clearly out of the question! Think of the children! :roll:

Despite its' removal from the compo, as previously promised, I will indeed be completing the game, regardless, and releasing it on its' own, at some point in the future.

tokumaru wrote:
Sumez wrote:
Btw, now I'm really curious about what alp's game was :)

Furry shemales, if memory serves me right.

Incorrect.

While "Transamnia" is indeed a game that I'm working on, my unsubmitted compo entry "Cotton", was a disgustingly adorable Super Mario Bros. clone, with nearly Kirby-like visuals. I had posted a preview of it, on the "How's everyone doing?" thread:
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=15153#p183677

Here's a slightly updated preview, because why not? I will not be releasing a demo, just the full game.
Image

Image

My NSFW game on the other hand, is an RPG, clearly meant for adults. It's title screen alone, even puts most NES games to shame! :P
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Action 53 volume 3
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 8:54 am 
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Cotton looks amazing, basically my favorite type of game! As for Transamnia, while the title screen does indeed look nice, it's kinda hard to read, hard as in "I wouldn't know the name of the game if it wasn't also written in plain text".


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 Post subject: Re: Action 53 volume 3
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 10:33 am 
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Alp wrote:
You're missing the point. It's the principle of the thing, censorship is slippery slope to fall into, and if a game with tasteful nudity isn't okay, but a game containing obvious suicide is, then a cute game with a girl throwing veggies at monsters is clearly out of the question! Think of the children! :roll:

Who said a game about obvious suicide would get a thumbs up from everybody? This is a recurring pattern. That is another type of theme I would rather not put in a game collection to be sold that represents a community.

Cotton looks like it is coming along well and I look forward to its release.

Sumez wrote:
I won't argue that the NES sold more in North America than anywhere else, but Japan was a very close second, and comparatively a much smaller country.

I didn't mention Japan because the Famicom sold in Japan, not the NES :P


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 Post subject: Re: Action 53 volume 3
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 11:26 am 
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I don't necessarily have an issue with goddamn, but fuck (especially on opening scenes) is beyond what I feel is acceptable.

I was suggesting we use some 3rd party list of what words are acceptable and what's not instead of coming up with our own list and arguing what words fall on what side of that line.

Honestly for me it's a bigger deal if the explicit words are presented immediately or late in the game. A kid picks up the controller when on display at a gaming convention with a parental figure standing at their side. Kid reads through opening scenes and reads the F word creating a rather uncomforable situation I'd rather avoid..

As for the 'cartoon' topless nudity in Wo Xiang, I've failed to bring up my thoughts on the matter up to this point. I have a hard time classifying 2-3 pixels as nudity. But since we're on the topic... It would be nice if she were able to have a bathing suit/bra top. Maybe have the topless an unlocked feature later in the game?

IDK, how reasonable this idea is but if there were a relatively simple way to toggle what we deem explicit maybe that would make everyone happy..? Sounds like a lot of work to make something like that happen with each individual rom especially after the fact. Maybe something like entering the contra cheat code at power up or game boot unlocks censorship? Again, I'm not sure if this idea is worth the effort.. But it would satisfy my request to make explicit/questionable material less accessible. From my perspective there's a difference between getting exposed to explicit material immediately when booting the game, verses late in the game. That's an even more grey line to try and draw however probably digging an even deeper hole.

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 Post subject: Re: Action 53 volume 3
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 12:51 pm 
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Sumez wrote:
Well, neither am I. I thought I made that pretty clear.

Sorry if I misread you. I was mainly objecting to being quoted out of context.


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 Post subject: Re: Action 53 volume 3
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 1:32 pm 
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infiniteneslives wrote:
It would be nice if she were able to have a bathing suit/bra top. Maybe have the topless an unlocked feature later in the game?


Nudity was removed before the latest submitted version. The "end of level" cutscene is also covered. No need to unlock anything, nudity was not a reward to the player - it was just, I don't know, never thought about it. So somebody privately asked me to remove both features, and I did.

In fact, and please bear with me, tepples, I think I might resubmit this game once again. There's a couple of things more that I might change.

As for the suggested unlockable uncensored version, I don't think it's necessary or worth the effort. I think the rules are pretty clear: you want your game in the cart, it must be for all audiences, period. I don't think its such a big deal.

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 Post subject: Re: Action 53 volume 3
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 2:42 pm 
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na_th_an wrote:
Nudity was removed before the latest submitted version.


Much appreciated, sorry I didn't catch that update.

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 Post subject: Re: Action 53 volume 3
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 3:31 pm 
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na_th_an wrote:
Nudity was removed before the latest submitted version. The "end of level" cutscene is also covered. No need to unlock anything, nudity was not a reward to the player - it was just, I don't know, never thought about it.

FWIW, I liked Cheril's sprite better before you gave her the "collar" to suggest clothes. Seemed to fit the "goddess" theme better too. (This is not a suggestion about what belongs or doesn't belong on the cartridge, though.)


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 Post subject: Re: Action 53 volume 3
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 1:48 am 
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That was exactly the reason for her original design. It fit the theme, nothing more, nothing less.

Now she looks like the main character in a cheesy late 70s space opera, which is also cool. I've grown to like it. In fact, I have kind of redesigned the character around the new look.

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