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 Post subject: Broken {{pinoutLegend}}
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:23 am 
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In the page MMC1 pinout (and possibly others), the inclusion of {{pinoutLegend}} writes the following to the page:

Code:
           .---\/---.
  input -> | 01  08 | <- input
 output <- | 02  07 | -> output
 supply -- | 03  06 | ?? unknown functionality: could be an input, no connection, or a supply line
   misc -- | 04  05 | <> bidirectional
           '--------'
n or f - connects to NES or Famicom
r - connects to ROMs (PRG ROM, CHR ROM, CHR RAM)
w - connects to WRAM (PRG RAM)


Obviously there's something very wrong going on, but I don't have the media-wiki knowledge enought to fix that.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:36 am 
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To edit that part of each page, edit Template:PinoutLegend. What do you find "very wrong" about its content?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:56 pm 
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Well, if what is wrong isn't obvious, in addition to showing the pinout of MMC1, it shows pinout of an unknown 8-pin chip (perhaps some CIC clone ?!). Someone probably included the pinout ifself before the legend as part of {{pinoutLegend}}.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:33 pm 
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The example chip is just an abstract representation of an IC to act as an example for what the symbols mean for pin directionality and how they are used.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:53 pm 
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The sole purpose of {{PinoutLegend}}, from what I can tell, is to illustrate how the diagrams should be read - it shows how input, output, bidirectional, unknown, and misc/power pins are labeled, and it explains what certain common labels like "(n)" and "(r)" mean.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:55 pm 
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Quietust is right. I've clarified the template to set it off with a box and mark the example as an example. This is what it looks like now:
Attachment:
Template_PinoutLegend_2017-12-29.png
Template_PinoutLegend_2017-12-29.png [ 4.04 KiB | Viewed 1804 times ]


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:42 am 
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Oh, I see now. Well, I do not think this should have a chip, it should just have the symbols, it would be less confusing. Also I think the arrow symbols are self-explainatory, they don't need any more explaination than just being there. On the other hand, "input" and "output" are ambiguous terms and should be avoided whenever possible in electronics.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:21 pm 
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Bregalad wrote:
Well, I do not think this should have a chip, it should just have the symbols
How do you have the symbols without having the chip?

Quote:
Also I think the arrow symbols are self-explanatory
No, they're not, because other people have asked in the past.

Quote:
On the other hand, "input" and "output" are ambiguous terms and should be avoided whenever possible in electronics.
Care to justify that? I have never heard someone object to that terminology in english-language EE.

IMO, there's a better argument about the validity of the arrows than the words "input" and "output", because the arrows could imply many other things.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:27 pm 
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lidnariq wrote:
How do you have the symbols without having the chip?

Easy enough
Code:
->
<-
<>
??


Quote:
No, they're not, because other people have asked in the past.

Come on, you're arguing just for arguing. No offense but because you claim one people in the past didn't understand something does not necessary mean that thing wasn't clear. If for example 20% of people don't understand then yes it's not clear enough but if one guy don't understand one time, and everyone else does, then it could it's the guy's mind who is at fault. But ok let's assume it's not self-explanatory.

Quote:
On the other hand, "input" and "output" are ambiguous terms and should be avoided whenever possible in electronics.
Care to justify that? I have never heard someone object to that terminology in english-language EE.

IMO, there's a better argument about the validity of the arrows than the words "input" and "output", because the arrows could imply many other things.[/quote]
They are ambiguous terms because input from one chip is output of another chip. So they are always input or output relative to something. When discussing the pinout of a chip it is usually relative to that chip so it's not ambiguous but this should be specified nevertheless. And when discussing the pinout of a connector this is always ambiguous.

Also I do not see what other purpose the arrows could possibly serve, except maybe current direction for analog chips.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:09 pm 
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Bregalad wrote:
Easy enough -> <- <> ??
And how do you make it clear what that means without there being a chip body there for the arrows to point relative to?

Quote:
Come on, you're arguing just for arguing. No offense but because you claim one people in the past didn't understand something does not necessary mean that thing wasn't clear. If for example 20% of people don't understand then yes it's not clear enough but if one guy don't understand one time, and everyone else does, then it could it's the guy's mind who is at fault. But ok let's assume it's not self-explanatory.
Any forum regular claiming that a thing is "obvious" is intrinsically suspect. We're steeped to the gills in this stuff, we're physically incapable of knowing what's obvious to a newcomer.

Quote:
They are ambiguous terms because input from one chip is output of another chip. So they are always input or output relative to something. When discussing the pinout of a chip it is usually relative to that chip so it's not ambiguous but this should be specified nevertheless. And when discussing the pinout of a connector this is always ambiguous.
Signals travel in one, both, or no ways across any given threshold. If that threshold is a IC package, it's obvious which side is "inside". But the word "input" and an arrow is equally problematic when we're talking about e.g. a card edge connector. You have to denote which side is "inside", and then they're equally clear.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:35 pm 
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Bregalad wrote:
And when discussing the pinout of a connector this is always ambiguous.

It depends. "Input" and "output" for an external connector (one on the chassis of a component) are clear from that particular component's perspective. The RCA jacks on the side of the NES-001 Control Deck are thus audio and composite video outputs. For internal connectors, I agree that it may be trickier. But to avoid doubt, I've sometimes referred to signals on the NES or Super NES controller connector after the name of the analogous signal in SPI bus. For example, the signal on the bottom left pin of controller ports 1 and 2 is MISO (master in slave out).

Bregalad wrote:
Also I do not see what other purpose the arrows could possibly serve, except maybe current direction for analog chips.

Perhaps someone might confuse an arrow that points away from a signal source with a diode that points away from a current source. Occasionally, diodes are used to synthesize an AND or OR gate without having to layout, source, and assemble a whole 7400 series IC. This is called diode logic, which Don Lancaster's cookbooks reportedly compared to a well-known Disney* cartoon character.

lidnariq wrote:
Bregalad wrote:
Easy enough -> <- <> ??
And how do you make it clear what that means without there being a chip body there for the arrows to point relative to?

One possibility is not to include pin numbers nor the top or bottom edge of the package, making the "chip body" fragment in the legend clearly distinct from any actual pinout on the same page.
Code:
--|  power supply   |--
<-|  output         |->
->|  input          |<-
<>|  bidirectional  |<>
??|  unknown use    |??



* Before WDC's acquisition of Pixar, Marvel, Lucasfilm, and Twentieth Century Fox


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:00 am 
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lidnariq wrote:
And how do you make it clear what that means without there being a chip body there for the arrows to point relative to?

Well you can describe "arrow going to chip" and "arrow leaving chip". But I think tepples had another idea that's not bad either. Anything is best than a fake chip which is not the one whose pinout is described.


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