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Would you use nes-starter-kit?
Yep 32%  32%  [ 8 ]
Nope - assembly or bust! 16%  16%  [ 4 ]
Nope - NESMaker is more what I'm looking for... 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Nope - I prefer do things my own way 40%  40%  [ 10 ]
Nope - Some other reason 12%  12%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 25
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:49 am 
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I've been playing around with this for a few months, so it's time to get some eyes on it beyond mine, and see if it's actually useful to anyone. (I also put this on NA a few days ago... feel free to comment in either place)

Image

Since I went to MAGFest this year, I've been kind of obsessed with the idea of making retro development easier. The people I met made me realize that a lot of people want to get started, but aren't sure how. While there are a lot of good options out there already, I realized there just might be a space for a code-based starter kit. So, I made one!

nes-starter-kit is an attempt to make NES homebrew more accessible. It is presented as an intentionally short zelda-esque NES game, combined with a guide to update/change/replace every part of it. (Click above to play the game!)
All changes can be done in C - no lower-level coding is required. 
* The game uses neslib and some custom extensions written in 6502 assembly, which should cover your needs without modification. If you want to tweak these or write some code in assembly, there is some guidance in the 5th section for this. 

The thing can be used to build a very simple, basic game without much code. However, the included guide walks you through adding a lot of features, and also hopefully gives enough guidance to come up with your own ideas!

Features: 
  • Keeps things simple; nothing beyond basic programming knowledge is needed (Can you get through the first few chapters of a C tutorial? If so, I want this to work for you!)
  • No restrictions on music - anything you create in Famitracker should work
  • Optional IDE integration (VS Code) - syntax highlighting for you code, and a key combination to build and run your game
  • Works on NES console; compatible with PowerPak and INL MMC1 cartridges
  • Use it for whatever you want: all code is MIT licensed, and graphics/music/sounds are Public Domain. (This means you can freely use this for anything, including commercial products)

Known Caveats:
  • Some chapters probably still assume too much technical knowledge (If you run into problems, let me know!)
  • Engine performance could get slow when features are added. I don't know if I've quite found the balance between performance and ease-of-use yet.
  • Uses an older version of cc65, other tools. All are provided for download, so it should work consistently at least
  • Map editing in Tiled is mildly annoying due to limitations with layers
  • Versioning not quite figured out yet -- if something weird happens when you update the code off master, try redownloading the tool zip. (I'm trying to get better!)
  • It's not NESMaker; some code is still required ;)

The guide is broken into 5 sections - the first one is an introduction, and the rest are meant to be read as needed.

Let me know what you think if you decide to check it out! Is this something you would use?
Github PRs/issues/etc also always welcome.

Online Guide

nes-starter-kit on Github

Example rom

Have fun!


Last edited by cppchriscpp on Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:37 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:25 pm 
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I think it's awesome that you made this. I imagine most of the people that inhabit this forum will say that we wouldn't use it, because if we're here, chances are we are no longer your target audience. But I can see this being extremely useful for someone wanting an example to get started with.

So I guess my point is, I hope you don't be discouraged by a lot of "I won't use it" responses here, because I love that you made this.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:22 pm 
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Hey!

Thanks for the feedback - that's a good point. I guess with NESDev I'm not really expecting much in terms of "I'd use this" -- I almost didn't post here, but I think there's more of a chance that people here will look at it with a critical eye, and point out potential problems. That's valuable too!

I put the poll there in hopes it might catch people who are too anxious/lazy/whatever to post, but are still thinking about using it. Any little indication that people actually want to use this will encourage me to carry on. I'll admit, I'm really afraid this doesn't have a target audience. (And I have been since the start)


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:53 pm 
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I support your project, despite being fairly against using C for this platform. I'm not going to de-rail the thread about that (it's irrelevant); my point is that just because *I* wouldn't use it doesn't mean it doesn't have benefits for others. There is a definite use for what you've written and shared. It's a positive thing and provides a good base for people who at least want to get some basics down in a "less cryptic" language than assembly. Expanding:

We get people here every couple months who want to do NES stuff in C and not assembly (though I tend to remind them: you're going to have to deal with 6502 eventually, esp. when debugging, so avoiding it entirely is unlikely). So the fact your project is predominantly in C (barring the deeper bits, which you covered already in a smaller font) should make that process easier for those folks.

Kudos!


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:03 am 
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Nice work! I'm in the process of finishing something simmilar (a simple, modular and configurable game engine, along with a toolchain and tutorials), also using C, neslib and famitracker. Some knowledge of C is good to have for full customization, but it should be manageable for a non programmer as well. What is your target audience?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:09 pm 
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Thanks for the feedback Koitsu!

na_th_an- That's awesome; I'll be super interested to see your project when it's ready. You've consistently produced amazing work, so I'm going to bet it will be good.
If I've done anything useful, don't be afraid to copy/reach out. (I use the MIT license for this reason)

For a target audience, the ideal person is a developer who has thus far only worked in higher-level languages (thinking node/php/java/etc) and wants to dive into NES dev, but needs some guidance/hand-holding.
I'm also trying to make it accessible to the person who has only written a few scripts here-and-there... but I realize that's going to be harder to do, and I don't think I've gotten close to that target yet.


I guess for me, a big thing *I* like to play with is game mechanics, so one of my goals is to make changing those really clear/easy.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:38 pm 
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I like how you have organized things and have learned a couple of things that will save me from lots of manual work when configuring fairly complex mappers. I have yet to examine the code, which I will. I guess, from a quick glance, you are interested mainly in code readability and make things easy for programmers, which is a good thing. Code is clean cut. I'm sure newcomers will have a great quickstart. The empty canvas is frightening if it's your first canvas. I believe in a way of learning to do things where you start filling in the gaps. For instance I can readily write 6502 assembly after all these years and such an asset has helped me in making my games better - but if I had to have endured the hard way, I'm sure I'd given up. Hadn't I had neslib and Chase I would have achieved nothing. And what you are offering is vastly superior!

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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 3:00 am 
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This is great stuff!

I wouldn't use it though. But that's simply because doing the low level stuff myself on the nes is part of the fun for me.


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 6:45 pm 
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I am super new to nesdev, and I am very happy to devour anything you are offering. Thank you!


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 4:46 pm 
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Thanks for the kind words folks!

Just a quick update; I've got the first two sections complete, and with those you should be capable of making a very basic game! I'm kinda thinking of this like an alpha release.

I'm getting into the 3rd chapter, which is the start of adding new features - I think these chapters are going to be more involved to write. I may create a git branch for each one, since I expect to be writing a lot more code. (This also means I need to maintain a bunch of branches as I update the main engine, which could be a pain)

At any rate, progress continues!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:44 pm 
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It's been about a month, so I figured I'd post an update. The project is quite alive!

Since my last post I've completed about 80% of the chapters I had intended to write. (I have around 9 left, though I may add/subtract a few) It's definitely ready for use now!

I also just released a documentation site today: Pretty documentation!

Notable additions include:
- All of section 2, including adding enemies, sprites of all types, and adding music/sound
- The first few new feature chapters - including adding a new map
- Making a nicer title screen
- Animating background tiles

Anyway enjoy, and questions are always welcome!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:13 pm 
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Your guide says you need Cygwin, so I'm thinking hmm, is he compiling a NES game with GCC? But then the source code is cc65 and neslib...which I didn't see mentioned at all in the guide.

What is Cygwin for then, just to get the Unix tools? Not for a C compiler?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:00 pm 
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Yep, it's just to get the unix tools. Mainly, I want make (to put all build stuff in one place, allow incremental builds, and organize it in a semi-sane way), as well as curl/rm/mkdir/touch/etc.

Plus, though I don't officially support linux/mac os right now, I'd like it to be possible. (Also helps to be able to use the same build process with circleci)

Could I do all of this with windows commands? Sure, but I suspect it'd be harder to edit and understand, and also more prone to failure.

-----

That aside, you do make an interesting point about what tools are mentioned where.

The way I have it sorted right now, I only briefly mention the various things you rely on in the "Setting up your tools" chapter -- I tried to focus more on getting everything working than on explaining what everything is. In fact, the only thing I say about the C compiler there is:

Quote:
To make life easier, most of the tools, including the compiler, c library, and various converters are
included in the following zip file:
LINK


I do mention all of the tools in the README: https://github.com/cppchriscpp/nes-starter-kit#tools -- and any tools that are directly used are introduced in the chapter(s) that use them. (For example, I introduce famitracker in the sound/music chapters, and I introduce NES Screen Tool in the various graphics chapters)

Perhaps it's worth having a chapter (or a subsection of the tools page) that just explains all the various tools we depend on at a high level, for anyone curious...

(Also I just noticed I missed Tiled in the readme file; gonna go ahead and fix that!)


Update: I changed the passage above to this, to at least reference the tools by name:

Quote:
To make life easier, most of the tools, including cc65 (our c compiler), neslib (The library we use to interface with
the NES), and various converters are included in the following zip file:


Still thinking about if I want to do more.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:33 am 
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In the setup instructions included with nrom-template, I have recommended getting the UNIX tools (Make, Bash, and Coreutils) on Windows by installing MSYS 2 through devkitPro Updater. Would MSYS be a good substitute for Cygwin in this case?

Git for Windows also includes MSYS Bash and Coreutils, but in that distribution Make needs to be installed separately from ezwinports.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:57 pm 
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I could potentially do that, but I'm not really sure what benefit anyone would get from it. Could you elaborate?

Cygwin is a little old/clunky, but it 1) provides the tools I need, and 2) provides a convenient installer for them with command line parameters, so I can make it really easy for someone to install the tools and move on. (Plus, if you have Cygwin already installed it will just add anything you don't already have) I looked at a couple options, and cygwin actually seemed like the easiest to support/use.

devkitPro also kinda suggests that I not do that for a project like this... from their about page:

Quote:
If you're thinking about using a devkitPro toolchain for a derivative product, i.e. placing a preinstalled toolchain in a VM image, creating software which uses one of our toolchains to build generated code or packaging our tools with your product in any way, please don't. See Trademark Guidelines for advice on our position. These kind of packages/products cause us endless support problems.
(emphasis mine)

I can certainly be convinced, but it seems counter-intuitive to change right now.


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