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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:06 am 
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In this topic, Molive posted a test ROM titled "YourEmuSuxx.sfc". In reply, byuu wrote: "Your file naming removes all interest I would otherwise have in looking into this."

Now I'm worried. I wrote two Game Boy test ROMs to point out particular problems with Game Boy emulation in the Qt version of the emulator mGBA. First White tests that the first frame after turning on the LCD is drawn white, on which Pokémon Pinball and several other games depend. Telling LYs? tests that the joypad interrupt doesn't always occur on the same scanline, on which a game might depend to gather a quality seed for its RNG. They display the same message on failure:

Attachment:
youremulatorsucks-2x.png
youremulatorsucks-2x.png [ 921 Bytes | Viewed 5057 times ]


The font choice is inspired by Internet meme culture, and the text is inspired by a screenshot under "RF-Modulator/Video Amplifier Characteristics" in "accurately reproducing the Video Output of a Commodore C64". The screenshot titled "c64_emusux0r.png" reads:

Emulation Still Sucks!
PAL-Emulation my ass!
Thumbs up for hires!
a friendly reminder
from the Crest QA department


I assume this is from a Commodore 64 demo by the demo group Crest. Can someone identify it? And how if at all do I need to change my own practices for failure messages?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:34 am 
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Well, when someone worked hard to make something and you tell that person indirectly they suck... That may hurt to some degree? ^^;;;

That feels quite insensitive and the best way is to just show that it is in error state instead of a snarky comment like that. When it's for a close friend, it may be fine and will laugh about it but when suddenly coming out of nowhere, anyone would be not so enthusiastic about it.

It's all about context. Unless you know the person very well, it is not a nice thing to do.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:14 am 
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Is this an improvement?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:08 am 
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I don't see the cause for concern. If anyone objected to your previous ROMs, they might just tell you about it like byuu told the other person in the post you quoted.

But why not just factually state the error rather than grade or be funny if you're concerned?
Along the lines of
"This emulator does not display white for the first frame."
"Emulator detected by vsync aligned controller polling."

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:07 pm 
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As an emulator developer myself, I'm not particularly offended. The meme was always playful to me, and given its origins from the demoscene, I always saw it as a technical challenge for emudevs to rise up in terms of emulator accuracy. Perfect example would be Overdrive 2; in a few weeks BlastEm emulated most the demo, and the author was pretty cool about all the neat tricks Titan used, if I recall correctly.

I agree with Kasumi though. Messages like "Your emulator sucks" are better replaced with informative messages clearly detailing exactly what went wrong. Hardware test ROMs should not only decide between correct/wrong results, but communicate what was the test in the first place and what the results mean.

I'm fine with keeping cheeky, teaser messages in demos because it's all in good fun. Who doesn't like to discover new hardware tricks that can't run on any or most emulators? Seems like something a demoscener would be proud of, so I see no reason not to have a message like that in a demo. But I'd prefer test ROMs to be straightforward and more "analytical".


Last edited by Shonumi on Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:48 pm 
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I guess not being able to figure out how the other party may feel is maybe one of Tepple's weaknesses. No matter if that is true or not, knowing how someone else feels is hard for anyone, and asking is the only mostly safe way to learn it, so I think it's only a good thing that you ask about things you are concerned about like this.
Like Molive in that linked thread apologised when he noticed that his joke was taken the wrong way, and then it was fine. That's good manner.

My opinion is the same as Banshaku's. "Sucks" is a strong word and using strong words to someone you don't know may always be considered rude, and should probably be avoided when trying to be funny in general. Especially if it may be taken personally like in Byuu's case.

(BTW I'm too dumb to get most of Tepple's jokes. :) )


Yeah I also agree that test ROMs should be more informative and straightforward. Not saying a discrete joke or two are forbidden though.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:59 pm 
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Pokun wrote:
I guess not being able to figure out how the other party may feel is maybe one of Tepple's weaknesses.

Correct. It's a symptom of Asperger's.

Pokun wrote:
No matter if that is true or not, knowing how someone else feels is hard for anyone, and asking is the only mostly safe way to learn it

It's not safe when the reply is to the effect "If you have to ask what's offensive, that shows you don't deserve to know, and I feel justified in blocking you from reading what I write and proceeding to bad-mouth you behind your back."

Pokun wrote:
Like Molive in that linked thread apologised when he noticed that his joke was taken the wrong way, and then it was fine. That's good manner.

I will replace this message in the two test ROMs where I have used it. The unfortunate part is that a fully informative message is likely to take more distinct tiles than the current message.
EDIT: Done

Pokun wrote:
(BTW I'm too dumb to get most of Tepple's jokes. :) )

Feel free to PM me about of my jokes that you fail to understand.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:13 pm 
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tepples wrote:
"If you have to ask what's offensive, that shows you don't deserve to know, and I feel justified in blocking you from reading what I write and proceeding to bad-mouth you behind your back."

I know that feeling all too well. I came to the conclusion that the people who behave like that are the ones with the problem, not me - offence, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

But there's no point in picking a fight when you know how to avoid it. And an emulator test is probably not the best place for a meme, even a nonoffensive one. They're supposed to test emulators, which are enough of a test of their developers' patience all by themselves.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:32 pm 
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Usually in those case (test) I try to give as much information as possible so it will help the programmer. Like Tepples mentioned, if it takes too much tiles to display the cause of error then you do it a more methodological way by showing an error number then having a file that explain what those errors are for in details. By staying as much diplomatic as possible, it is more useful for the developer than "you suck" or "f" since it doesn't say "why" you had that error in the first place ^^;;;

As for the demo scene meme, I didn't know about it, it just happened that I never saw it. Often in a community we get into our own world and tend to forget that maybe not everyone are aware of them and that "it's just common knowledge" and we may indirectly push some user way because of our indirectly "abrasive" nature (I know a few people that don't come to nesdev because of that).

Still, it doesn't mean that there should be no humor and we have to be bland and dry, we just need to find the when and how that humor should be shown and it would be appreciated. For example, I tend to put some smiley here and there in PR (pull request) review of junior programmers and give encouragement message since I'm not expecting them to be perfect and they will make mistake, it's expected. That is less dry then "fix this" , "that line is wrong", "we don't do that" etc etc. It just you have the find the right moment to use it and it make things more colorful.

In your case, just F seems dry but to make a context that like it looks like some paper and it shows and error list, having a message like "oh no! The test failed!", I don't know, something that wants to be playful to some degree, I don't see anything wrong in that case. Like I mentioned, it's all about context. If there was a document that explained the rom and explain what the F means (does E, D,C,B,A a possibility too?) then it could be fine too.

Context, that's it.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:12 am 
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Indeed Crest(circa 88 and one of the founders is still active in the group ) is a long and highly regarded Demo group.

I have issued a source request for you. I will let you know when I get definitive results.

Demo groups have a long history of slinging mud in a friendly and not so friendly manor. In most cases I would imagine that the demo makers know the emulators authors (or most of them) well, and hence nobody in the scene would take offense from such a statement. The Nes/SNES/GB "collection of random people" doesn't quite have this comradery and I would think it is more likely to bruise egos. Also the Crest demo will most likely be pulling some insane clock perfect "impossible" trick, like 9 sprites on a line or something along those lines. Not "minor error nobody has noticed in 30 years"

edit: It was rather obvious, don't know how I missed it. The release is here https://csdb.dk/release/?id=81780 its called emusuxX0r


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:33 am 
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I was really trying to not stir up any more drama. I might just not be capable of it ... :c

So, it's not a big deal, really. I shouldn't have said anything, I'm sorry.

It's just ... we work on these emulators for 10+ years, thousands of hours, free of charge ... we're constantly doing everything we can to learn more about the most incredibly obscure behaviors, and improve our work. We work with anyone nice who shows up to figure out and emulate new quirks.

Then someone finds out about some new obscure behavior, and we're treated to, "your (life's work) sucks!" ... really? >_>

Tell anyone from any profession that they suck at what they do, and you're less likely to get a positive reaction when you follow it up with advice. That's probably irrational of them if the advice is good, but humans are very irrational creatures. Especially me.

Quote:
"This emulator does not display white for the first frame."
"Emulator detected by vsync aligned controller polling."


+1. Much more helpful.

My own test ROMs were embarrassingly lazy: blue screen for pass, red screen for fail. First byte in SRAM was the test# that failed. Look at the source code for comments.

Quote:
we may indirectly push some user way because of our indirectly "abrasive" nature (I know a few people that don't come to nesdev because of that).


It's easy to assume someone is just a jerk. Even when they tell you outright that they're ASD, BPD, OCD, etc. It's really hard to relate when you don't suffer from the same issues yourself. But if you take the time, and read up on these things, you'll find that (most!) people aren't actively malicious, and are having a really hard time of things themselves.

A little patience and understanding for our quirks can mean the world to us. Whereas if you treat people as being awful human beings, they're just going to spiral down more on it. Yet at the same time, you have to let them know what they're doing wrong if you ever want to see them improve. And sometimes, for your own sake, you have to just cut certain people out.

Quote:
It's not safe when the reply is to the effect "If you have to ask what's offensive, that shows you don't deserve to know, and I feel justified in blocking you from reading what I write and proceeding to bad-mouth you behind your back."


Self-improvement is a grueling and incredibly long process. Even when we say we're trying, people probably don't see it enough. We also have good days and bad days. So, probably what you're seeing is people giving up.

It hurts to be blocked by someone we respect. It hurts even more when they never let you know, and you find out through another person what they really thought of you.

But I think the worst thing would be if someone constantly put up with me when they really didn't want to. I don't want to be a burden like that. So let people block us if they need a break from us. If they want to bad-mouth us after the fact, then hey, that's a reflection of their character, not ours.


Last edited by byuu on Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:22 am 
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I guess I trusted Crest too much because Colgate had a bad reputation among the YouTube Poop community with its assertion of copyright against parody remixes of its Dr. Rabbit cartoons.

In any case, here's what I came up with
Attachment:
youremulatorsucksnomore.png
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:47 am 
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@byuu

I think you reaction in that case was appropriate since unless you knew the meme (which I didn't myself), it was kind felt a little bit stingy to say it that way :lol:

I may have mentioned before, I don't see it as a problem when it's a close friend and you are just pulling his leg but out of nowhere on a public forum there was a good chance to be interpreted the wrong way (which is exactly what occurred). The person apologized and I think the misunderstanding is now over, which is a good thing.

We should all see it has a lesson learned and it doesn't mean we should never jest but find when it the appropriate time to do it ;) As for your condition, I wasn't aware of it and now that I know I will just be more aware that it could be just a reaction based on that and there is nothing wrong with that. We all have some OCD or other thing to some degree and there is not much we can do about it but learn to live with it. As long we are open and learn how to manage them or other people help when it get derailed then it's fine. Nobody is perfect and this is to be expected.

We all have our quirks and up and down so you shouldn't worry about that ;)


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:00 pm 
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That message is obviously a tongue-in-cheek joke. If somebody takes it so personally that it cripples them emotionally, I don't know what to say.

Why has everybody gotten so sensitive over the last 10 years or so? :roll:


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:08 pm 
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Because it doesn't hurt you to be considerate of other people's feelings.


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