Need for a "don't ask how to make bootlegs" rule ?

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Should someone who asks how to make a bootleg see his thead locked / be warned

Yes
11
33%
No
22
67%
 
Total votes: 33

tcaudilllg
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Post by tcaudilllg » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:04 pm

[offtopic]
Well with 10% unemployment in the U.S., things are much worse here than they were 2 years ago, when there was only 5% unemployment. It's so bad that even Walmart can be discriminating when they hire someone. No employer out there is desperate anymore.[/offtopic]

My point is that bootlegs are apparently profitable and money is scarce, so expect the budding little industry to grow and, consequently, for your hobby to possibly become more expensive the more it does, what with increasingly smaller numbers of $3 carts on Ebay.

I think that what Bregalad is referring to is the "Padme"/abused wife effect where somebody keeps focusing on the good a person might do in spite of the vast amounts of harm they have done and keep doing (or most likely intend to do). I mean sure Darth eventually crossed back over, but was the domination of the entire galaxy really worth it?


Thinking about it, Nintendo has much to gain, long term, from the destruction of existing NES hardware. In fact, were that source of access to old games to disappear, they would need little else except to come down hard on the ROM image distribution scene (via an appropriate copyright bill) to make their virtual console service the only means of inexpensive access to old games.

ibeenew2
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Post by ibeenew2 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:11 pm

Bregalad wrote: I'm all against this stuff.
Then why are you helping coinheaven in the SNES forum? You should be wanting him banned...

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Post by Memblers » Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:20 pm

I guess I give people the benefit of the doubt. Unless they say what they're doing (it's always helpful when they do), I can't really assume why they're doing it. Maybe they also feel the price of the repro is worth more than their time to build it. Or maybe they just want to play around with molten metals, or give their EPROM eraser a purpose in life. And yeah, it could be to make some easy money with a skilled labor that is apparently in demand. If they don't say, I don't want to assume.

LeonK was mentioned, I remember years ago getting some help from him, and some other folks building reproductions I got some supplies and helpful advice from. NES developers and cart builders could really do a lot to help each other out. Hell, if I published a game that had more demand than I could (or wanted) to build myself, I would be a good option to seek any type of assistance from others who are the most experienced and interested in crafting NES carts. For me though, I wouldn't want my own products to be in a store with (other? haha) products of questionable origin. Eventually I'll open my own little online store. But I've got lots more stuff to develop, first.

Anyways, I'd rather have the info available for anyone to build whatever they want. It's better than having it be all secret and having one big company come in and do the same thing anyways, and obviously Nintendo isn't coming back to the NES (but I'd hope they tell me if they do, heh). There's not going to be much profit with all the competition (unless done on a bigger scale).
ibeenew2 wrote: If the repro makers are getting their carts from places like outbidding others on eBay, then no the carts used were not headed to the landfills. I doubt they are going through trash cans to find the donors.
I can only speak for myself, but I have bought hundreds of SMB/DH cartridges, for pretty cheap. And maybe a few dozen Major League Baseball, a common LJN sports game (it's got everything going for it, heh). Before I was buying carts to recycle like this (unfortunately, I didn't anticipate a use for them at the time), the list price at the Funcoland store was 9 cents. That's maybe the only time in my life I'll see a store, with a fully stocked shelf of something that costs 9 cents, haha. (other than little pencil erasers or something dumb, but maybe not even at that price)

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Post by tepples » Sat Nov 27, 2010 6:52 am

You were right: it is becoming a problem. I'll try a new tack: finding how to be snarky while maintaining a civil tone.

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Bregalad
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Post by Bregalad » Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:02 am

Oh man I guess I ruined your strategy because the other thread was above this one. If I knew that I'd have just shut up and let you do it. But oh well it's too late...
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Post by 3gengames » Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:35 pm

-cough cough- Nothing against him as said before, but it seems he asked to do this just for money?


http://www.nintendoage.com/forum/messag ... adid=41878


-pokes the Just Breed game-


Oh well. At least it seems he has done more on his own though so it's not that bad. XD

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Post by blargg » Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:05 pm

Hypothetically, what if we found that bunnyboy made the PowerPak just for the money? Would that negate the value of the PowerPak, put it on everyone's blacklist? The question to me has nothing to do with any money being made, but rather whether it adds value to NES development. That is ALL that matters. I don't know why some people here have such a problem with the free market, and the idea that someone somewhere is doing something that others find of value, and is getting paid for it. Fraud is another thing entirely, of course, but I see a lot of focus on things unrelated to that.
Last edited by blargg on Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by 3gengames » Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:08 pm

I don't really have any problem with it adding to NES Development, I make devcarts too and yeah the powerpak is awesome and he's making money, but it' for development and just so happens to double as a good ROM running tool. But, he used the info you guys gave him just for money, and it contributes nothing towards NESDev. I don't know, Yeah making money is a PLUS for developing stuff and learning all this, but yet, he came here JUST for money and NOT making games and development stuff. I guess I feel like he used you guys and feel bad. I guess if you don't mind though, it's okay then.

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Post by ibeenew2 » Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:45 pm

tepples wrote:You were right: it is becoming a problem. I'll try a new tack: finding how to be snarky while maintaining a civil tone.
Almost 2/3rds say it isn't a problem, but now you have decided it is? The guy you are linking to even did all the research to find out which donor, how to burn chips, what rewiring to use, etc etc etc. How is he a problem? He found the wiki, so if you weren't trying to keep the info a secret to an elite club you could just post it there and refer anyone to it. Fortunately one person was actually helpful instead of just thread crapping.

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Post by 3gengames » Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:17 pm

Yeah, true, and I never said he was the problem. It's just that he used it for money and money only it seems. I don't like that feeling. If I knew anything like that and I was drained for info just for money, I'd feel kind of saddened by such a thing.


And we did't say it's not a problem, the vote just says we shouldn't ban people over it. I voted no bans and the fact that it is a problem is apparent to me at least from that one case. :roll:

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Post by blargg » Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:42 pm

3gengames wrote:Yeah, true, and I never said he was the problem. It's just that he used it for money and money only it seems. I don't like that feeling. If I knew anything like that and I was drained for info just for money, I'd feel kind of saddened by such a thing.
I'll let you in on a secret: I only come here and post things because they will bring me enjoyment. So I just use everyone here! :)

Really, if someone is using you but it brings benefit to you, who really cares why they are using you? I guess it is a little sad to not be doing NES stuff for the enjoyment, just trying to make a buck.
And we did't say it's not a problem, the vote just says we shouldn't ban people over it. I voted no bans and the fact that it is a problem is apparent to me at least from that one case. :roll:
I agree with you; banning people for things that one finds merely distasteful is a great way to negatively affect everyone, because everyone is a potential target for this "purification". Banning should only be done when someone is doing something that negatively impacts NES development, and only after being warned. Examples that clearly warrant it are people disrupting threads (we've had a few of those over the years), and things that could result in legal trouble for the board (posting links to ROMs, or trade secrets).

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Post by 3gengames » Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:29 am

blargg wrote: Really, if someone is using you but it brings benefit to you, who really cares why they are using you? I guess it is a little sad to not be doing NES stuff for the enjoyment, just trying to make a buck.

Yeah, if somebody makes a game and want to play a prototype, I'd happily help them. If they decide to sell it down the road after they've played it and had their enjoyment, yeah I'm okay with that too. Just not only for money. I would want to help if it also makes the end user enjoyed for something that isn't money, because nostalgia and play your favorite games' prototype is really cool! But making a game for no reason but money is bad. As we all know money is the root of evil....and apparently forum destruction and distrust like here.


I know if you guys didn't help me with pointing me to assemblers, compilers, cart info, etc. I'd not be here and would be missing out on something I enjoy, seeing my programs run on a actual NES. It's part of a dream, making games for an awesome system. It's awesome. And if you guys decided to keep making devcarts and repros secret, I'd be missing out on a ton and I'm sure others would be too. I don't want that to happen, but I don't want it to be out there for fakers, scammers and other people. But sadly it must be for ease of use and thats okay, as long as they don't come to us. I don't look at the guy I linked to as dishonest and such as he did do a large amount of stuff on his own and just had a few questions, but I am using it as an example where what if the same happened but we helped the guy from the ground up. Not just wiring. Explaining board types, ROM's, mappers, etc. I'd be really pissed if that happened, truthfully, even if I didn't give my time to the topic and helping that person.


Blargg does have a great point that he gets enjoyment from just helping anyone, but it's just that it bothers me in a way. But yet I guess it doesn't matter because I lose nothing so it's fine.


When we get a guide that has a better description on how to make a repro and such, I think it'll help a lot. -remembers to work on that later- So yeah I think the key to stopping this is getting more easy to understand info. With maybe a little warning "Don't goto the forums to make Illegal games, only homebrews even though they use this same guide just with a different ROM." or something like that to just tip people off that people can make repro's if they use the guide right. And for everyone that asks, just point to the guide and say "Start off here" and then help after they've put some work into it and learned some stuff about it and then just nudge them along from there. I think that could possibly help with this so it doesn't get bad (started) in the near future.

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Post by Bregalad » Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:35 am

Hypothetically, what if we found that bunnyboy made the PowerPak just for the money?
Once again you're comparing stuff that can't be compared !! Bunnyboy never made annoying threads ! On the other way, many thread of people asking for something like that were made, and eventually he took the situation in hand. The powerpak is a legal development tool, it's not an illegal fake cart !

This has nothing to do with the large flow of people that comes asking how to do fake carts, on the other way arround it makes an argument to have everyone stopping making devcarts as they have no use anymore, unless you want to test your own code with a true mapper which OBVIOUSLY isn't the case of those guys.
I voted no bans and the fact that it is a problem is apparent to me at least from that one case.
I agree with you; banning people for things that one finds merely distasteful is a great way to negatively affect everyone, because everyone is a potential target for this "purification". Banning should only be done when someone is doing something that negatively impacts NES development, and only after being warned. Examples that clearly warrant it are people disrupting threads (we've had a few of those over the years), and things that could result in legal trouble for the board (posting links to ROMs, or trade secrets).
Oh my god :

I NEVER SAID BAN IN THE VOTE ! I JUST SAID WARNINGS/LOCKING THREAD.

You guys vote without even reading the question ?? Seriously WTF ?
Almost 2/3rds say it isn't a problem, but now you have decided it is?
My point was just that if it's repressed to download a ROM, then it should repressed to download a ROM and put it on a cart. This is purely logical. However, it seems people on this board are very careful about not linking any commercial ROMs being afraid of Nintendo coming here and shutting down the site.
HOWEVER Nintendo could also shut down the site if we help people to make fake carts. Maybe I didn't word this well in my original post, and I should apologize for that. Nobody wants Nesdev to go down with something stupid for that, especially since ALL those guys come just to ask questions how to do devcarts and go sell them somewhere else.
As we all know money is the root of evil....and apparently forum destruction and distrust like here.
Apparently Blarg is ready to defend anyone who wins money, dirty or not. I guess he thinks that by defending people who earn money a dirty way he would one day be defended back when it would be his turn to earn money. That or maybe he just likes to oppose my for saractic pleasure.
Blargg does have a great point that he gets enjoyment from just helping anyone, but it's just that it bothers me in a way. But yet I guess it doesn't matter because I lose nothing so it's fine.
They day Nintendo shoots nesdev down because of legal issues we'll loose everything.
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Post by blargg » Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:32 am

Bregalad wrote:
Hypothetically, what if we found that bunnyboy made the PowerPak just for the money?
Once again you're comparing stuff that can't be compared !!
In several places people have come down on others for doing things in order to make money, as if that makes whatever they're doing bad. Since people tend to approve of the PowerPak, and it is something that is sold for money, it is a useful starting point for a thought experiment, to see how we might respond. It's all part of better understanding why things bother us, so that we can better take action. If, for example, we found that we were simply against people making money on things, we might examine our own issues rather than take them out on others who don't deserve ill treatment. If, on the other hand, we found that our distaste was due to negative effects on NES development, we would have justification for finding ways of eliminating those effects.
Bunnyboy never made annoying threads !
OK, so the problem is that threads annoy you? I'm really confused about your reasons for going against some of the posters, as there never seems to be a clear reason. In my experience, that's a clear sign that the real reason hasn't been identified, and that the seeming reasons are just projections. This doesn't mean that it's just a personal issue, just that whatever the reason is, it hasn't been identified.
On the other way, many thread of people asking for something like that were made, and eventually he took the situation in hand. The powerpak is a legal development tool, it's not an illegal fake cart !
You keep using this term, "illegal fake cart". I think I can understand the illegal part, as tepples has helped clarify. But the fake part still doesn't make a lot of sense. If someone is making a repro for personal use, what is fake about it? It has the ROM code on it, it runs in the NES, and it probably doesn't have a proper label. To me a fake is something that is meant to seem like the original, but isn't. Now, if someone tried to make the label look just like the original, then it would be a fake of sorts. If he was selling it and properly informed the buyer that it was a fake, is there a problem in that? Or is the problem when it's passed off as genuine? If so, then you should refer to this as fraudulent, because it is misleading the buyer and defrauding him.
This has nothing to do with the large flow of people that comes asking how to do fake carts,
So the problem is the number of people? If it were fewer it wouldn't be an issue? If it's the number of people, then that points to it being about its drain on our resources, not about the legality.
on the other way arround it makes an argument to have everyone stopping making devcarts as they have no use anymore, unless you want to test your own code with a true mapper which OBVIOUSLY isn't the case of those guys.
So the problem is that they aren't writing their own code?

Like I said, it's never clear what your real issue is with these people. It seems like you just don't like them, but need to come up with objective reasons to justify wanting to get rid of them
Bregalad wrote:
I voted no bans and the fact that it is a problem is apparent to me at least from that one case.
I agree with you; banning people for things that one finds merely distasteful is a great way to negatively affect everyone, because everyone is a potential target for this "purification". Banning should only be done when someone is doing something that negatively impacts NES development, and only after being warned. Examples that clearly warrant it are people disrupting threads (we've had a few of those over the years), and things that could result in legal trouble for the board (posting links to ROMs, or trade secrets).
Oh my god :

I NEVER SAID BAN IN THE VOTE ! I JUST SAID WARNINGS/LOCKING THREAD.

You guys vote without even reading the question ?? Seriously WTF ?
Why do you assume we didn't read the question? It's not like we can only discuss exactly what you asked, and are forbidden from talking about related things. We are discussing various responses we could make to people asking how to make repro carts, and banning was one we were talking about.
HOWEVER Nintendo could also shut down the site if we help people to make fake carts. Maybe I didn't word this well in my original post, and I should apologize for that. Nobody wants Nesdev to go down with something stupid for that, especially since ALL those guys come just to ask questions how to do devcarts and go sell them somewhere else.
Yes, we should not assist people in things that have no legal uses. But there's no need to go ape-shit when one of the posts; just explain that we won't help and be done with it.
Bregalad wrote:
As we all know money is the root of evil....and apparently forum destruction and distrust like here.
Apparently Blarg is ready to defend anyone who wins money, dirty or not. I guess he thinks that by defending people who earn money a dirty way he would one day be defended back when it would be his turn to earn money. That or maybe he just likes to oppose my for saractic pleasure.
Why the fuck are you making person attacks on me? I just don't get it, and at this point, I think it's clear that this issue is going to cause some major repercussions of who continues visiting this board. The way you seem to operate is that you have these things you have issues with, for whatever reasons, and cannot tolerate other people approaching the issue with an open mind, and seeking the truth of the matter, regardless of what will be found. Because I won't go along with your demonization of them, but rather ask whether they really are the evil bastards you treat them as, you are now attacking me.

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Post by 3gengames » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:07 am

I'm not against making money of new carts, but if you do it, atleast put out some new code, not another copyrighted game. :wink:

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