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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:49 am 
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tokumaru wrote:
Let me be the first one to say that these graphics look amazing! You seem to be breaking some coloring rules though.


Thanks!
That's something else I was going to ask about. What rules am I breaking in that image so I can fix them in the game? Some bits like the enemies here I had in mind two layers of sprites to get an extra couple colors if it was a real NES game.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:21 am 
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There are a lot of background areas that do not respect the attribute boundaries, such as the shaded trees, the grass in front of the trees and the bridge. Each 16x16-pixel area can only use 1 palette, but you are mixing palettes inside these areas. The bridge could actually be made using a special mode of the MMC5 mapper, but not the rest.

The sprites have way too many colors, but like you said, they can be layered for extra colors, but even if that's the case I'm seeing more than 4 unique 3-color palettes. Also, the NES can only show 8 sprites in a row, and with all the sprites and layering you have that limit would be reached fairly quickly.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:37 am 
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tokumaru wrote:
There are a lot of background areas that do not respect the attribute boundaries, such as the shaded trees, the grass in front of the trees and the bridge. Each 16x16-pixel area can only use 1 palette, but you are mixing palettes inside these areas. The bridge could actually be made using a special mode of the MMC5 mapper, but not the rest.


Yeah that's the sort of thing I wasn't sure about. I don't mind taking the sky out if that helps (or at least removing the clouds so that the sky is more block colored and working more in 16x16). Then if I remove the dark blue secondary light on the right side of the brown trees changing it to dark brown that'll eliminate that color which I can perhaps switch that color index to the sky color so that the 'gothrough branch platforms of the the tree can use the sky color as part of their 16x16 palette? Am I on the right lines here?

The grass in front of the darker tree tiles can stay though can't it as it uses the same dark blue/green and black the trees do.

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The sprites have way too many colors, but like you said, they can be layered for extra colors, but even if that's the case I'm seeing more than 4 unique 3-color palettes. Also, the NES can only show 8 sprites in a row, and with all the sprites and layering you have that limit would be reached fairly quickly.


Oh that's ok. I don't mean to have too many sprites in a row. They're just like that here for show. They'll be more scattered in-game and I'm just pixelling a couple more smaller enemies right now that use only one layer and can be used a bit more often. The leaves on the branches would be sprites that fall when walked over (though I might just take them out completely), the flowers overlaid on the grass would be sprites that could be destroyed as the dragon's fireball or flame (think Dhalsim from Street Fighter, hehe) passes through them but again I won't have many per row especially in areas where enemies would walk along there.

The smaller palettes thing is something I'm not quite sure about. How's that work?

Anyways this be the kind of advice I've been looking for, thanks :)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:45 am 
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These sorts of graphics would be at home on a PC Engine, called TurboGrafx-16 in many markets outside Japan. It's too bad the TG16 never took off in the United States to the point where used ones are affordable.

I assume the little dragons are your player characters. If you have two palettes for player characters, you're going to have to make a lot of other stuff on the screen use the same palette as the player characters, such as using the red dragon's palette for the flames. If you freeze-frame Contra, for example, take a look at how many moving objects share the same palette as player 1 or player 2.

You may have to dynamically allocate the third and fourth palettes, much as the first Super Mario Bros. does, and restrict enemies with incompatible palettes from entering the same area. Notice, for example, the lack of Red Koopas and Green Koopas anywhere near each other, and the fact that Lakitu and Spiny usually get a level (e.g. 4-1) or big part of a level (e.g. first few screens of 8-2) to themselves.

Try mocking up an actual screenshot with only those things that'll be in a single area at once, and I'll point out where your coloring errors are.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:04 am 
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Carnivac wrote:
I don't mind taking the sky out if that help

I don't see anything wrong with the sky.

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Then if I remove the dark blue secondary light on the right side of the brown trees changing it to dark brown

You don't have to remove it, you can just make the brown part 16 pixels wide, and then put the dark blue part, which can share the attribute block with the sky since it's the same palette.

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The grass in front of the darker tree tiles can stay though can't it as it uses the same dark blue/green and black the trees do.

Yes, as long as it's the same palette.

Quote:
The smaller palettes thing is something I'm not quite sure about. How's that work?

NES tiles have 4 colors, and since sprites need transparency one of the colors is always transparent, which leaves you with only 3 colors per sprite palette. Your mockup appears to be using more than 4 palettes. Each dragon uses 1 palette, the coins need another one, what you have left is simply not enough to represent the ghosts, diamonds, chests, barrels, candles and flames.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:24 am 
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Ok I'm halfway through reworking the test shot.

What is the maximum amount of 4 color palettes I can have at any one time? And if a sprite uses the same palette as a background tile, can the sprite choose which of the 4 colors is transparent or does that become transparent for anything using the same 4 color palette?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:38 am 
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On the previous page, tepples wrote:
You get up to 25 colors at once out of 52. This comprises one background color for the whole image, four sets of three colors that (along with the background color) can be applied to 16x16 pixel grid spaces in the background (size of a ? block in SMB1 or SMB3), and four sets of three colors that can be applied to 8x8 or 8x16 pixel moving objects ("sprites").

You get black and eight sets of three colors.

Each 16x16 pixel area of the background can use four colors: black and either set 0, set 1, set 2, or set 3. They cannot use sets 4 through 7.

Sprites can use set 4, set 5, set 6, or set 7. They cannot use sets 0 through 3, and they can't use black unless it's one of the colors in the set.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:52 am 
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tepples wrote:
These sorts of graphics would be at home on a PC Engine, called TurboGrafx-16 in many markets outside Japan. It's too bad the TG16 never took off in the United States to the point where used ones are affordable.

I assume the little dragons are your player characters. If you have two palettes for player characters, you're going to have to make a lot of other stuff on the screen use the same palette as the player characters, such as using the red dragon's palette for the flames. If you freeze-frame Contra, for example, take a look at how many moving objects share the same palette as player 1 or player 2.

You may have to dynamically allocate the third and fourth palettes, much as the first Super Mario Bros. does, and restrict enemies with incompatible palettes from entering the same area. Notice, for example, the lack of Red Koopas and Green Koopas anywhere near each other, and the fact that Lakitu and Spiny usually get a level (e.g. 4-1) or big part of a level (e.g. first few screens of 8-2) to themselves.

Try mocking up an actual screenshot with only those things that'll be in a single area at once, and I'll point out where your coloring errors are.


I thought SMB uses these palettes:

sprites

palette 1: Mario or Luigi
palette 2: goomba, bullet bill, buzzy beatle, hammers
palette 3: red koopa, powerup mushroom, spiney, fireballs
palette 4: green koopa, 1up mushroom, pirhana plant, lakitu, bowser, hammer bros

background

palette 1: ground, brick blocks
palette 2: ? blocks, coins (animated palette)
palette 3: grass, trees, mountains
palette 4: clouds


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:14 am 
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psycopathicteen wrote:
I thought SMB uses these palettes:

sprites

palette 1: Mario or Luigi
palette 2: goomba, bullet bill, buzzy beatle, hammers
palette 3: red koopa, powerup mushroom, spiney, fireballs
palette 4: green koopa, 1up mushroom, pirhana plant, lakitu, bowser, hammer bros

So where's the Starman and the Fire Flower?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:38 am 
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Carnivac wrote:
What is the maximum amount of 4 color palettes I can have at any one time?

The NES has 4 background palettes and 4 sprite palettes. Sprites can't use background palettes and backgrounds can't use sprite palettes.

You seem to have defined black as the background color, so all 4 background palettes will have black as their first color. The remaining 3 colors of each palette can be anything you want.

The first color of every sprite is always transparent, the remaining 3 can be anything you want. If you want to use black on the sprites, one of the 3 colors of the palette must be set to black.

Except for the attribute clashes, your use of the background palettes looks OK, it's the sprites I'm worried about. Each dragon needs one palette, and the coins also need one. That only leaves you with 1 palette to work with for everything else.

If I were you I would redraw the red dragon and all the fire to use the same palette. Coins and barrels could probably share a palette too. The last palette could be cyan-ish and used for the ghosts and chests. The clothes of the floating enemies could use the palettes of the dragons or the coins (although they have no black). Flowers and diamonds will have to use the existing palettes, which should have enough variety of colors. The falling leaves could use the green dragon's palette. I'd do something like this:

palette 0: green dragon, green egg, leaves;
palette 1: red dragon, flames, red diamonds, flowers;
palette 2: coins, barrels, candles, flowers;
palette 3: ghosts/enemies, gray diamonds, chests, spikes;

Although the spikes would probably work better as background, unless they are supposed to move.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:24 am 
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tokumaru wrote:
Let me be the first one to say that these graphics look amazing! You seem to be breaking some coloring rules though.

I agree, looks great! If you ever feel like doing graphics for an actual NES game, contact me. :) I have a NES game engine in good shape, but finding somebody to do the graphics is proving tough. Unfortunately I also don't have any kind of design documents done at this point.

EDIT: 1 year later it's time to fix a typo.


Last edited by thefox on Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:59 am 
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thefox wrote:
tokumaru wrote:
Let me be the first one to say that these graphics look amazing! You seem to be breaking some coloring rules though.

I agree, looks great! If you ever feel like doing graphics for an actual NES game, contact me. :) I have a NES game engine in good shape, but finding somebody to do the graphics is proving though. Unfortunately I also don't have any kind of design documents done at this point.

I also agree.Too bad these graphics are impossible to run on real nes(like Tokumaru said earlier).Besides that, it's excellent work :D


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:22 am 
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tepples wrote:
psycopathicteen wrote:
I thought SMB uses these palettes:

sprites

palette 1: Mario or Luigi
palette 2: goomba, bullet bill, buzzy beatle, hammers
palette 3: red koopa, powerup mushroom, spiney, fireballs
palette 4: green koopa, 1up mushroom, pirhana plant, lakitu, bowser, hammer bros

So where's the Starman and the Fire Flower?


Doesn't the Starman and the Fire Flower just rotate through all 4 palettes?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:32 am 
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Denine wrote:
Too bad these graphics are impossible to run on real nes(like Tokumaru said earlier).

This is not such a big deal... The background is almost correct, and the sprites are probably easy to change (even if they'll look slightly less colorful). Personally I'd love to see something like this running on a real NES.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:15 pm 
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Ok does this work (uses the global palette of my first screenshot)?

Image

Have I got this whole palette thing right or did I misunderstand it?

(I took out the clouds but I can add them back in later using palette 3)


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