ArchiveTeam wants a copy of all our sites

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nesworld
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Post by nesworld » Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:55 am

nesworld.com does not want AT's "help" either....

- Martin
-----------------------------------------------------------
Owner of www.nesworld.com

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cpow
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Post by cpow » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:15 pm

tepples wrote:Yeah, perhaps part of the difference is that one of you is talking about "*.parodius.com" and the other about "nesdev.com and wiki.nesdev.com".
Yeah even I caught that.

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Kasumi
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Post by Kasumi » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:21 pm

Tormenter wrote:
koitsu wrote: Is there anything constructive you can add to any of the threads you've posted in? Sorry for getting combative, but all I've seen is peanut-gallery comments passing judgement and asking "why" in a smarmy way. What do you have that's positive that you can bring to the table? Because I welcome such.
I host many sites, I know how much traffic costs. This is just a message board, and could easily get buy on a $100 a year plan with no problems.
That's still not constructive. Okay, you host many websites. Does this mean you're offering to host this one on your own dime? Or all of parodius on your own dime? Otherwise you're still just complaining to complain.

tepples
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Post by tepples » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:34 pm


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Kit Sniper
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Post by Kit Sniper » Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:03 pm

I just updated my site's uh... privacy... footer thing with the following line:

"No portions of the written material by Dave Silva may be reproduced or archived in whole or in part without express written permission by the author (except for short quotes as permitted by fair-use clauses) under penalty of him calling you a douchebag."

That won't stop them, but at least I did something. :P

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koitsu
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Post by koitsu » Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:08 pm

I appreciate them taking the time to answer/respond eloquently. That's exactly the kind of thing (communication level) that's needed.

However, what does amuse me is that they don't know what exactly was said (to me privately) on behalf of AT. I risk violating my own morals/ethic/privacy stance doing this, but I'll post verbatim (no editing) exactly what I received in a nesdev PM from user Wyatt. I'm doing this mainly for Aggroskater's benefit of knowing exactly what was said to me and how. (No hard feelings Wyatt, not trying to get you into any trouble or anything, mate. I just believe strongly in open communication for things which can affect so many people)
Hello,

I'm contacting you today on behalf of Archiveteam [0] and, to cut straight to the chase, we want a full archive of everything on the parodius network. We hear you'd be be guy to talk to about it, so to start, what would be the best way to copy your data for archiving? Please respond through this system, to my email address, or pop in on #archiveteam on EFnet and say hello. Looking forward to working with you!

Cheers,
Wyatt
The message is friendly, but is worded in such a way that implies I've already said yes ("...looking forward to working with you!"), when in no way shape or form had I said anything at that point (and not to mention my answer is obviously "you need to ask every site owner").

I will note however, and this isn't a bitching point, but I *did* appreciate Wyatt's curt and terse request (I like people who speak bluntly), but it's the ethnics/nature of the thing that I can't allow since every hosted users' data is their own. You can't ask me (rack/datacenter space owner, server owner, hosting provider, etc.) for permission to take/archive our users' sites.

Anyway, I consider the matter closed. TL;DR version is the same as it was before: if AT wants to mirror/archive a site, they need to ask for permission from the site owner (Kitsune, Martin, Ronnie Martin of JE, Nightcrawler, etc.), and not the hosting provider/owner of the entire service (me). The only part that concerns me is the bandwidth usage as a result of said archival scraping and so on. That's all. :-)

Oh, and to the AT folks: if you're having trouble reaching anyone we currently host, sure, let me know and I'll try to reach out to them. (I can't just give you their Email address + phone number given their right to privacy, but I can always contact them + make them aware you're wanting to talk to them).

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B00daW
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Post by B00daW » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:16 pm

Hopefully not all of this communication is for naught. Catching a whiff of Aggroskater's last little rant -- that he's very cool with knowing people will associate with his screen name and traceable information for as long as a servers are capable and humans are interested enough in spending the money to keep the machines online -- states that even though ethics are in place, people -- and possibly ArchiveTeam.org -- may disregard the wishes and respective licensing of those that hold the information.

I remain an optimist and will not "told you so" if this should happen in the future.

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Kit Sniper
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Post by Kit Sniper » Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:44 pm

B00daW wrote:Hopefully not all of this communication is for naught. Catching a whiff of Aggroskater's last little rant -- that he's very cool with knowing people will associate with his screen name and traceable information for as long as a servers are capable and humans are interested enough in spending the money to keep the machines online -- states that even though ethics are in place, people -- and possibly ArchiveTeam.org -- may disregard the wishes and respective licensing of those that hold the information.

I remain an optimist and will not "told you so" if this should happen in the future.
This is exactly what that rant said to me. I wasn't sure if I was the only one to feel that way.

"It is nonsensical to suggest that I both want to post a public comment to a website, but don't want someone else to archive it, to copy it, to read it; the nature of the medium is such that to read it is to archive it, to copy it, for that is the only way it will ever reach a user's browser." That really bothered me.

It's my content. I'm OK with this being read over the internet on my own terms, at my own site. There are no restrictions on who can read my stuff. I just don't want it mirrored anywhere right now.

I hope they can understand that.

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koitsu
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Post by koitsu » Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:04 pm

I'll throw in my two cents and I'm done.

What they need to understand is that there is a definite difference between these two things:

A) An Internet citizen/visitor visiting a site, browsing it normally, and downloading something from it (e.g. downloading an IPS patch, viewing a Wiki page, etc.),

B) Someone (unrelated to the existing hosting provider or owner of site) downloading the entire contents of a site for archival purposes, the data of which is to be stored on another server/provider somewhere else.

The thought process that goes into (A) is that of someone trying to find an answer on the Internet, or just "using the web how it was meant to be used". They're there to read, browse, etc. and then step away.

The thought process that goes into (B) is that of someone who wants to download everything (think: hoard) and then put the data up somewhere else (probably without the original site author's consent) for people to download, or maybe just to hoard it.

Just because "it's on the Internet and is publicly available" does not mean one should go about being rude/inconsiderate towards the maintainer/site owner, nor the hosting provider. (Like I said: in my case I'm concerned about bandwidth, because I am extremely well-educated WRT 95th-percentile billing, the standard within co-locations).

In my opinion, and I'm speaking personally here, not "as a representative of Parodius", (B) is perfectly fine to do only if both parties agree to it. "Both parties" means the site owner and the person doing the archiving.

I can come up with 2 or 3 analogies (and not using cars -- I hate car analogies) if need be. It seems to me that AT violates the general "Don't Be A Dick" principle. I appreciate AT's spirit/desire to archive things and not lose good information on the Internet -- that's a positive thing, we'd all agree I'm sure, and if they're anything like me they don't particularly like archive.org's unreliability :-) -- but simply being nice about it and respecting other people (plus the hosting provider; like I said, bandwidth is not free) is really a mandatory requirement when doing this sort of thing.

It boils down to this: just because a website is online and publicly available does not mean you should go and recursively download everything that's there (without permission). Period. Really it is that simple. There's no grey area; it's black and white. Really it is. And if (maybe only some?) folks at AT can't understand that, then possibly they need to re-think their values.

...and all of this is exactly why Parodius has had a very happy user base (both the free hosted folks and the dedicated server folks): because respect goes a long way.

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koitsu
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Post by koitsu » Tue May 01, 2012 1:20 am

It looks like AggroSkater updated (or possibly Tepples?) a bit of their main page here:

http://www.archiveteam.org/index.php?ti ... Networking

I appreciate AggroSkater's comments at the bottom of the page -- looks like they'll let things settle for the time being, which is very considerate of them (thank you AT folks!). I'll be happy to talk to the AT folks -- or Tepples can on my behalf -- after TFD (see main Parodius page for what that means) about archivals of sites which don't get migrated.

I'm certain there will be a few, as the owners of some have dropped off the face of the planet (contact info I have for them is old/wrong, etc.). I'm of the opinion that AT can archive those sites (whatever's public) assuming there isn't already a policy/statement in place on the site about copyright of data, etc..

But the maintainers of the major/more popular sites, however, have almost all contacted me at this point with migration plans.

I still need to talk to MickoZ and Zepper, respectively, about Kinox and RockNES (and in the latter case what to do with the rocknes.net domain). Zepper's easy to talk to (hi :-) ) and I keep in contact with MickoZ weekly via Email but we haven't talked about Kinox yet, just been talking about hockey cards and personal stuff.

The other person I'm having trouble getting in touch with is Demi (Steve Demeter) of Demiforce, who's still a great personal friend of mine but he seems to mainly communicate via social networking sites (which I don't do), so if anyone is on Facebook or what not and feels like sending Steve a comment + point him to the Parodius home page, that would be kind of you. He has multiple sites hosted here so I'm concerned. :-)

My schedule this week is incredibly busy -- had 3 separate dental work items done on Monday so my mouth is killing me, Tuesday I have to visit my GI specialist and an anaesthesiologist for what's coming up on Thursday -- followed by going to work on Tuesday, Wednesday is still up in the air but I may have time then depending on the results of my chat on Tuesday (else I'm going to work), Thursday I have a colonoscopy (TMI I know but just giving folks an idea of when I say I'm busy I really will be busy), and Friday is a well-deserved day of rest, so I might have time then to reply.

P.S. -- For Tepples: since you have an account on AT, go ahead and update the page in this regard:

* sdlmame.parodius.com -> sdlmame.lngn.net (r0ni moved his stuff)
* Nesworld is officially moved at this point to a new hosting provider called A2Hosting. Their forum is now working too. Martin has always owned the domain name so there wasn't anything for me to do (nesworld.parodius.com has redirected to www.nesworld.com for many years now, even when we hosted it)
* pt.parodius.com has plans for migration
* joyelectric.com has plans for migration (being handled by their site administrator who also does his own hosting)

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Kit Sniper
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Post by Kit Sniper » Tue May 01, 2012 5:34 am

... well I think I sent the message to the right person. Hope so. :p

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