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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:04 am 
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Even if the software doesn't support actual sub forums like our NESDev competition subforums in the Homebrew category, they could still create any number of forums on the top level.

If a website called "Romhacking" has separate forums for "Programming" and "Script help", but only one single all-purpose "ROM hacking" thread, so that a legitimate sub group (hack requests) has to be put into in single thread, then this is nothing but pure and utter stupidity.


Imagine if "NESemdev" and "Homebrew Projects" weren't separate forums, but two threads in the "NESdev" forum: "If you want to present your homebrew game, do it in this thread only. In every other place, it gets deleted."

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:29 am 
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Requiring Homebrew Projects to be in one topic sort of sounds like the rule on Reddit against self-promotion.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:51 pm 
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I guess there is not much that can be said by the way they do thing except for "when in Rome, do as the Romans do"? ^^;;;


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:01 am 
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DRW wrote:
Erm, sub forum maybe? "Hacks and translation requests"?

Unless you are exclusively browsing one subforum of a forum site, having stuff segmented into other subforums is completely pointless.
They only work for archival purposes, and when you are actively searching for something specific.

Honestly, it's the same at this place. There's a subforum for reproductions, which I have no interest in, but there's no way to avoid seeing those among all the other active threads when I'm browsing activity here.

If it were up to me, every forum software would do away with subforums, and use a "tag" system instead. Much simpler, and much more useful.

DRW wrote:
Because every active member always reads the entirety of that thread? Wall of text is suddenly not an issue anymore?

A person actually interested in doing a hack at the requests of others would check that thread when a new post has been added. Someone who doesn't click into the thread most likely wouldn't be willing to do it anyway.
I'm saying this because quickly skimming the thread I see that most requests actually get some sort of response. Mostly in the sense of "you could just do this or that instead" or "that isn't really feasible", etc. But it still means people read it.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:19 am 
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I always find it funny how people spontaneously invent arguments just to win the discussion against someone else:

I bet that five seconds before you read my post, you never ever in your whole life thought that sub forums are pointless and that summarizing a whole topic category into one singular linear thread is the better alternative.
And here you are, arguing exactly for this very thing.

I bet, if I had complained about too many sub forums and argued for a single thread that includes each and every request, you would have argued exactly in the opposite way: "How are people supposed to find separate things in a long thread? Sub forums and separate threads are the way to go."
You would most likely not have said: "I agree. The forum structure on NESDev is a mess. One thread per main topic is sufficient: One thread for NES development, one thread for homebrews, one for graphics, one for general chit chat."

Sumez wrote:
There's a subforum for reproductions, which I have no interest in, but there's no way to avoid seeing those among all the other active threads when I'm browsing activity here.

So, the best alternative would be to summarize every aspect of reproduction into one thread. Yeah, as I said: I'm 80 % sure you didn't believe that yourself before you felt the need to disagree with me.

Sumez wrote:
A person actually interested in doing a hack at the requests of others would check that thread when a new post has been added. Someone who doesn't click into the thread most likely wouldn't be willing to do it anyway.

It's not an all or nothing thing, you know? People willing to do hacks aren't robots who don't do anything but scanning requests.

If I see an NESDev question related to C, I might be interested and click on it because I might contribute to it.
Threads about PPUADDR: I know that there are a dozen people here who can answer this stuff better than me.
If every question was put into the same thread, it's unlikely I would even find the C-related question under all those other topics and meta discussions in the first place.

Likewise, a person who might be interested in a "Soccer" hack would probably see the thread when he skims over the last 10 new threads in that sub forum, reading the single line "Soccer hack with twice the speed". But he might miss it if it is buried deep within the last 50 posts that are walls of text about anything.

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Last edited by DRW on Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:40 am 
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I think the megathreads are intended for things that are supposed to move along like a (persistent) chat room, with each request gaining one or two responses at most rather than an involved discussion.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:47 am 
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tepples wrote:
I think the megathreads are intended for things that are supposed to move along like a (persistent) chat room, with each request gaining one or two responses at most rather than an involved discussion.

Doesn't matter. The internet is not a physical place where you have to save literal room.
Even if each and every request doesn't spawn many replies, a sub forum is still better than a single thread because you can see the request itself in a big fat font on a dedicated page without having to read a bunch of replies in an ongoing prose text.

Mega threads should only be for one big on-going discussion about one specific topic. ROM requests have nothing to do with an on-going thing or with a chat. ROM requests are job offers and therefore belong, as titles, in a list view.

I'm really curious if there was ever any hack that resulted specifically from that shitty thread.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:46 am 
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DRW wrote:
The internet is not a physical place where you have to save literal room.

A member's display is such "a physical place".

DRW wrote:
Even if each and every request doesn't spawn many replies, a sub forum is still better than a single thread

Provided it doesn't require a (possibly paid) upgrade from forum software that does not support subforums to forum software that does. phpBB 2 did not; phpBB 3 does.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:43 pm 
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DRW wrote:
I'm really curious if there was ever any hack that resulted specifically from that shitty thread.

I'm really curious if there was ever any person doing hacks for other people (even paid).


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:07 pm 
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I had someone help me with a hack for Bubble Bath Babes to replace some of its graphics with those of Mermaids of Atlantis so that it could be played on a Twitch live stream. The device they were using didn't support the Mermaids mapper, and some graphics in Babes were inappropriate for Twitch.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:14 pm 
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I once received an e-mail for a paid hacking job, but the games names weren't mentioned, so I explained the price could vary greatly due to some games having data compression and other differences in complexities. Never got an answer after that.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:30 pm 
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tepples wrote:
DRW wrote:
The internet is not a physical place where you have to save literal room.

A member's display is such "a physical place".

Which would in no way be polluted if you made a sub forum.

For the person who isn't interested in it, it makes no difference whether he doesn't click on a single forum link or whether he doesn't click on a single thread link.

But for the person who is interested, there's a clear advantage of a forum with short thread titles that display the names of the hacks over a fucking wall of text that may or may not have a hack request somewhere in there.

tepples wrote:
Provided it doesn't require a (possibly paid) upgrade from forum software that does not support subforums to forum software that does. phpBB 2 did not; phpBB 3 does.

I'm not talking about actual sub sub forums. I'm talking about this:
Attachment:
Forum.png
Forum.png [ 35.55 KiB | Viewed 261 times ]


What makes it impossible to add a new forum here, called "Rom hacking requests"?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:06 pm 
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The reason there's no romhacking sub-board on nesdev is because there's an entire well-established (17 years!) website dedicated to romhacking with their own forum/board/system. In fact, there used to be SEVERAL such sites in the late 90s/early 2000s, but over time things got consolidated because the community often hated having to go to several sites with their own separate boards. How things are now is actually light years better. I've been part of the general romhacking community since it started, and some of the sub-communities, for a while -- not to mention hosting at least 4 separate ones on Parodius, including that which is now romhacking.net (my post count there is not reflective of how long I've been in the community). New folks who want romhacking-esque things are almost always referred there because that's where people who do that kind of work reside. It's like how you'd come here if you wanted to do NES-related development, not forum.6502.org. As such, I really must stress that adding a romhacking board or sub-board here is not a good idea -- directing people to a dedicated site for the subject is much more effective, no matter if *you*, a single person on planet Earth, don't like that sites' rules.

The reason there is a "gigantic megathread" is because the forum moderators are probably tired of everyone and their dog showing up asking for someone else to do reverse-engineering efforts; the megathread is called Hack ideas: for those without the skill but with all the ideas due to how prevalent it is for people unfamiliar with reverse-engineering (or even the console/system they want to RE a game on!) to want something done "magically". The difference here is that you're absolutely skilled, considering you've written NES games, but reverse-engineering is a whole other ball game -- and you know that, and you'd rather spend your time/energy elsewhere than learning that art (and that's totally OK!). *They* don't know any of that though!

Romhacking is often a task of passion and desire; the person doing usually has a personal and vested interested in it. For example, some of the most famous romhacks like SD3 took years and were done by a small number of people, all for free, with an immense amount of love and appreciation for the game itself; the same goes even for smaller projects. Here's an example, where a team last year did a translation of the Famicom release of Rampart, which is something I had been working on for many years by myself (just to get to the point where the translation could even begin), and I commended them for doing it but also felt kinda bummed because it felt like my efforts over the years were for naught. Not their fault, just how it worked out. My point is that this type of effort is usually something driven by personal interest and dedication; you'll need someone who is interested in Soccer to the same degree you are.

RHDN apparently greatly shuns monetary exchange for efforts -- and that's their choice. It's probably similar to how when I ran Parodius, no sites were allowed to have monetary transactions or exchanges happen on them, i.e. no offering money for services, no selling/buying of things, no storefronts, etc., because I put myself at great legal and financial risk doing such. RHers who *do* want money for their work will discuss it once the conversation has begun (ex. "Hi, I'm a NES developer who was interested in hiring someone to tweak an existing commercial game to do something different engine-wise. Would anyone be interested?" {several days go by} "Hey, I'm Bob, I like Soccer too and would be interested in knowing what you're wanting changed. I might be able to do it for a fee?" "Great, let's talk!"). Most of that conversing used to happen on IRC in real-time on #romhack (which varied per network); no idea where people go these days to discuss such things. I will note, however, that there are classic stories in the romhacking community of people being paid to work on a project and then disappearing/bailing once they'd been paid, as well as people who did romhacking/RE work for money but then never got paid (and actually this happened for a was-intended-to-be-a-commercial-game too: Neo Demiforce's Drymouth for the Gameboy Color. See the DRYMOUTH.TXT that comes with the game to get an idea of what happened (re: Stewart Bell)); these situations could also be why monetary exchange is shunned there.

If you don't like how romhacking.net's board operates, their rules/model, then that's OK. Everyone can have whatever opinion they want. But coming back here and literally whinging for *an entire phpBB thread page* about it, followed by trying to get a sub-board made for something that an entire site is dedicated to, all because you don't like their model of approach and how they operate (esp. for new posters), is not an act I'd expect from an adult. Besides, your bitching isn't even directed at the right people -- nobody here can answer WHY their board operates how it does (rule-wise), and the answers WE give you are never enough; you're always thirsty for more arguing**. Pragmatically stated, why not direct such strong feedback to the staff that runs the site? The guy who runs it is an established romhacker by the name of Nightcrawler. They also have a Twitter account, but I think that's used just for general release announcements and not for DMs but I'm unsure. If you want, you can reference this thread (and even my post here -- he knows who I am, I used to host him :-) ) as a kind of "see, this is my frustration vented" reference. Your choice.

I won't be responding past this point for the simple reason that for me, this has taken up enough of my own time/energy. I do hope that you're able to find someone who can do what you want with Soccer, or if you can't, that maybe if you feel up to it, you take the first plunge of reverse-engineering a commercial game entirely without source.

** -- Folks who have known me for a long time, especially on IRC, will laugh heartily because they're thinking "wow, and that's coming from koitsu, King Bitchfest himself! Pot kettle black!"


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:52 pm 
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koitsu wrote:
The reason there's no romhacking sub-board on nesdev

I don't think anyone suggested this. DRW seems to want a romhack request subforum on romhacking.net, not NESdev. As far as I can tell, they only ever really mentioned NESdev as a counterexample ("what if everything in the NESdev repro board was just a single thread?", and so on).

I agree with the main point of your post, though. This isn't the right place to complain about it.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:23 am 
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Great post koitsu. I want to add that their choice to not talk money is very probably related to avoiding legal issues with current copyright owners to the game's IPs. So they can always use the "we don't profit from this" defense, and I believe it's a great one at that.
So, in the case of Soccer, it's maybe easier to find someone passionate enough to do it "for free" than as a paid job. Unless nintendo got involved somehow, which is a near zero chance.

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Last edited by nesrocks on Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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