YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

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sazyario
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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by sazyario » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:42 pm

lidnariq wrote:A TV with component but not S-Video? That's confusing. (But I believe you, I'm just confused by it)

A s-video to component converter might be reasonable? Google seems to suggest DVD recorders are probably the cheapest way to get the encoding converted.
S-Video doesn't come on many TVs anymore.
My gaming TV is a 42" Samsung Plasma.
Its only connections are:
2x HDMI
1x Component/Composite Combo Port

sazyario
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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by sazyario » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:27 pm

NightWolve wrote:
Rellikami wrote:
Retrogamer wrote:So my parts arrived today and I rebuilt the amp.
Here's the old amp I used:
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff21 ... c7a3aa.png
Tried using the 2N4401 with the schematic you posted for the S8050, actually got some results that were not black and white though not super impressive. Tested the volts on Y Pr Pb Y was 3.46V from the chip and 1.56V at pin 7, Pr was about 3.52V at the chip but through the amp circuit it was 1.62V Pb was 3.48V from the chip but through the amp is about 1.58V everything looks much better voltage wise now. here is the snes with the transistor amps Pr and Pr from chip into the amp Y from pin 7.
Hey Rellikami, I'm a friend of Retrogamer's over at PCEFX and he showed me this thread some time back. I got started on the SNES mod because of what happened here and have been working on it ever since on and off depending on mood/interest. I made a current thread here, though I'll update my posts here about it if there's something of note. Anyhow, that's actually my first amp up there that you used with the S8050 (told Retrogamer about it some time back) and I was trying to tweak it when I discovered something interesting today: the Blue-Y output doesn't need amplification at all!

I'd like you to try this amp if you got the time or anybody else that has the S-ENC chip (don't know about the other one):

Luma/Y of course should come direct from the Multi-AV S-Video pin as it's perfect (redundant).

** S-ENC Blue-Y pin -> (+) 220 uF capacitor (as DC filter) (-) -> 39 Ohm resistor -> RCA Out to TV!

BOOM! 1 cap, 1 resistor. That's it! Very Simple! It turns out that the DC voltage was too strong such that when you'd plug it directly into the TV's 75 Ohm jack and that impedance resistor would ground it, it'd weaken the signal to the point where it'd look like it needed amplification... But if you just use a capacitor as a DC filter and plug that in-between, Blue-Y will wind up being too powerful actually!!

The Red-Y however, that's a different story; that needs maximum amplification and transistors are coming up short. You get the exact same results with the 2n3904, S8050 or the SNES 2SC1815 transistors (I tried all three).

The way I currently have the Red line is:

** S-ENC Red-Y pin -> diode -> SS8050/2N3904/etc transistor + 5V source -> emitter output goes to 80 Ohm pull down resistor AND to a 220 uF capacitor -> RCA Out to TV!

It's the same as my old photo that's linked, but instead of 1k resistor, use a diode, instead of 470 uF cap, use 220 uF, plus *no* 15 Ohm output resistance! You need the maximum that the transistor can amplify here, at least, that's my finding for my system. If you don't have a diode, you can leave it out. It's for protection and doesn't cause resistance of signal in this scenario if facing in proper outward direction, away from chip. Your final circuit, when ready to build on a PCB could include it if you want anti-static protection for the chip and in case of a transistor short sending +5V back to the chip, etc. Can't use it with the Cap trick for Blue-Y. Signal won't move through in that case.

Note: I am still tweaking both circuits, but lemme know about Blue-Y. If this is the case with other S-ENC chips, then the circuit can be much easier for everyone! To buy a chip if only Red-Y needs amplification may not be worth it if it pans out for most.

******************************************************

P.S. I recently bought a nice toy which has been a big help for tweaking this mod:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/120966019918?ss ... 1439.l2649
It's a F03147 HD USB 2.0 Video Audio Capture Grabber with YPbPr support! $23 shipped!

I rolled the dice in buying this because you don't know if 240p will be supported, but thankfully, it worked perfectly! So, with this device, you can take digital screenshots on your PC of Composite, S-Video and Component, side by side, page up/down very quickly on them to see how well the color level and tint match up, etc. The included software is kind of cheap, but it works with any DirectShow supporting software like DScaler and any other Movie Capture software, etc.

EDIT: Just made a really easy image for this all.
Image

Extra Notes: It's important to understand that the circuitry of a TV set that processes an analog YPbPr Component video signal varies and even if we could figure out the perfect output circuit, you're still gonna get people complaining about green levels, tint, etc... That's the unfortunate reality.

Examples: I have a Samsung LCD 19" TV that can process a 240p signal thankfully. It computes the color green perfectly. This is testable with Super Street Fighter II, the Ken stage where the water is supposed to be green and also with Super Mario World, the title screen. However, my old school Panasonic 32" CRT TV has a problem computing green from a Component signal and it's usually darker and/of the wrong tint, looks more bluish. It just doesn't compare to the brightness/tint of when you switch to Composite/S-Video. So on the same set, the circuitry for Composite/S-Video, properly displays green color as it should be. Two different sets+capture device, same circuit on console, yet green is wrong in one, the CRT.

The other issue is how it handles red, apparently. My Component-to-USB device tells me that I need a little more amplification for red, so it's almost perfect with no output resistance, just straight from the transistor with filter cap seems right. This also holds true for my Samsung LCD. But again, this old school CRT tells me that the red is a little hot and could use a 15-25 Ohm output resistor which is why my first circuit that Retrogamer posted has 15 Ohm resistors on the outputs... So anyhow, I am preferring to trust my USB device here in the view that a circuit revolving around that would produce the most universal result, while accepting that some TV sets you're gonna have differences and people may customize the circuit to fit that particular TV set.
Pasky wrote:I also noticed the Luma from the Multi AVOUT was also a bit too strong for component. I added a 15Ohm resistor to it as well but still feel it's a bit too bright but I can live with it.
Well, the Luma out of SNES units for S-Video is perfect. Both S-Video and YPbPr are referred to as Luma-Based Component video signals, so in principle the Luma from the Multi-AV out should be left alone for general mod guides. The reason you're seeing a difference is because of what I mentioned above, the circuitry of TV sets vary and even on the same set, S-Video and YPbPr processing vary. S-Video mode on my TV has options and filters that are off or don't apply when switched to YPbPr mode, etc. That's what explains all that, so just FYI in general. Point is, they are the same Lumas, just that YPbPr splits Chroma into Red-Y and Blue-Y rather than transmit them together as S-Video does. Anyhow, my 2 TVs (New LCD and old CRT) and my USB device with my SNES unit show that Luma is rocksolid when connected via the YPbPr jack.
So I made your circuit inside my SNES and it doesn't help with the image shaking on my 42" plasma :(
Any help?

lidnariq
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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by lidnariq » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:37 pm

Does the image still shake if you just connect S-video luma to component Y (leave Pr and Pb disconnected)?
Or does the TV refuse to parse that as component and pretends it's composite?
(maybe hook up something else's PrPb source if it does think it's composite?)

sazyario
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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by sazyario » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:58 pm

lidnariq wrote:Does the image still shake if you just connect S-video luma to component Y (leave Pr and Pb disconnected)?
Or does the TV refuse to parse that as component and pretends it's composite?
(maybe hook up something else's PrPb source if it does think it's composite?)
Well if this helps, I put the Source mode of my TV into Component Mode.
If I leave ONLY the Y/Green connection plugged in I get a black and White Picture that still shakes.

I know that Component works on this tv because I have an original Xbox360 with component video and its fine.

Also, if I plug in JUST the AV cable no shakes for 480i. However, Since I tapped the Y/Green off of Pin 7 the composite video is Green/Yellow tint only.

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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by lidnariq » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:16 pm

What happens if you tell the TV to parse the SNES's composite output as component Y?

In any case, the TV really should have been ok with the SNES's s-video luma output. Do you have another 240p source to try with? (Maybe a Wii playing some virtual console game?)

sazyario
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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by sazyario » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:27 pm

lidnariq wrote:What happens if you tell the TV to parse the SNES's composite output as component Y?

In any case, the TV really should have been ok with the SNES's s-video luma output. Do you have another 240p source to try with? (Maybe a Wii playing some virtual console game?)
I'm not sure what you're asking about trying to make my TV 'parse' the video.
My TV has a single shared Component/Composite port.

I dont unfortunately have another 240p source. I own a Wii U and not an original Wii.

Joe
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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by Joe » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:57 pm

I think lidnariq is asking you to plug your SNES's composite video cable into the TV, but set the TV to component input. If it works properly, you'll get a grayscale picture with a weird moving checkerboard pattern that looks like this.

(If the TV won't let you select component, or isn't grayscale, find a spare A/V cable and stick it in the Pb and Pr ports.)

sazyario
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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by sazyario » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:17 am

Joe wrote:I think lidnariq is asking you to plug your SNES's composite video cable into the TV, but set the TV to component input. If it works properly, you'll get a grayscale picture with a weird moving checkerboard pattern that looks like this.

(If the TV won't let you select component, or isn't grayscale, find a spare A/V cable and stick it in the Pb and Pr ports.)
Thanks for the clarification.
I will try this on friday when I come home from work.

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NightWolve
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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by NightWolve » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:14 pm

sazyario wrote:So I made your circuit inside my SNES and it doesn't help with the image shaking on my 42" plasma :(
Any help?
The problem isn't with any Red-Y/Blue-Y amplifier circuit, it's the native Luma/Y signal that's the problem here. I have a modern Samsung 19" 720p LCD TV that accepts a 240p signal in the Component jack, but I too get the shaking that you're describing... This does not occur at all with my old school Panasonic 32" CRT nor with the Component-to-USB device I mentioned here. You'll likely get the same kind of shaking if you plugged the Composite output into the Luma/Y input jack on that TV set as that is the same result that I got in my case.

Understand that 240p signal support over Component is limited, and many new TV sets will not work AT ALL with an old console that can't at least output 480i as a standard via the Luma signal. BUT, they will properly process a 240p signal that comes in through the yellow Composite or S-Video jack (if you have one, as was mentioned, S-Video support is being phased out with most new TV sets).

The only solution (as far as I can tell ya) would be a resolution-doubler device (AKA upscaler), to convert that 240p signal to 480p, and that would guarantee that it would work with most modern TV sets when it comes to the YPbPr Component connection...
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vingadorjr2
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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by vingadorjr2 » Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:37 pm

Hi everyone.

First of all, my board is a 1995 NINTENDO SNSM-CPU-1CHIP -01. Im into the mod scene for a while but now im trying to do my first snes mod and i will admit that im having some trouble. First ive got a old S-Enc one from a used market, but in no way i could find the luma nor chroma signals. The sound of this unit was a mess, with too much buzzing, then i decided to return that unit back to where ive buy and exchange it for another. Now ive got a 1Chip unit and after some research, i found that it is one of the best picture quality fat snes revisions, then im a little happy about this.

Time for the MOD. Ive opened it up and made the usual cleaning and everything was fine through the normal AV conections and the image was very clean indeed. Then was the time for the mod. Ive opened it up again and first i try to get the Luma and Chroma from the cable connector pinout, bellow the board. Soldered the wires on pin 7 and 8, straight to the svideo jack (no caps or resistors was used) and got the other 2 grounds from the iron protective faceplate. But the image doesnt come out, only dark static with some ugly drawns from the game. After 2 days trying to solder, desolder and everything, i quit doing this svideo mod with no sucess.

Then it was the time to try the Component YPbPr one. Ive soldered the wires to the pins 1 (Red) and 4 (Blue) and got the Luma from pin 7. Got the ground from the iron faceplate too and soldered it to the tree jacks. The result was a very stable image but the red and blue dont seem to be right or the green are completely absent by the looks of it. Ive already tried to mix the pin 2 (Green) with the Luma line, but nothing has changed. Tried then to link only the pin 2 (Green) to the green component line, but the image becomes unstable and with the same wrong colors. Even tried to use the brothers 220 uf cap and 75 ohm resistor on each line, but resulted in the same pink screen. Three methods and the same results... a pink predominant screen.

Can someone help a fellow noob modder here? By the looks of it, my displays (two) arent compensating for the lack of green on the signal or am i wrong? Is there a easy way to fix this and solve this problem? I appreciate any help and i thank you guys in advance for the excelent work here!

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NightWolve
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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by NightWolve » Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:29 pm

The decoding of the color green and its lacking level is an inherent problem with the YPbPr Component circuitry of some TV sets. If you go further back in this thread here, I already talked about it somewhat. Below are some shots of the same SNES and amplified Red-Y/Blue-Y output mod using the native Luma as recommended:

Image v. CRT 32" TV Image

Not just my USB device, if I take it to my modern 19" Samsung LCD TV, the green level is also decoded properly and looks fluorescent like it should (this green water background of SSFII is a good test for this)! Notice the blue and red levels are pretty matching, but green is off on the CRT 32" TV on the right, etc. However, on this very SAME CRT 32" TV, if I switch to S-Video, the green will appear more fluorescent like it should. That happens, even with my DVD player's S-Video output versus the YPbPr output, so it's not a matter of not having a perfectly compliant YPbPr signal in the first place.

Try another TV, other than that, I don't know of any way to fix this as, like I said, it happens in my case even with professional devices (DVD player) and their YPbPr outputs.
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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by vingadorjr2 » Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:46 pm

NightWolve wrote:The decoding of the color green and its lacking level is an inherent problem with the YPbPr Component circuitry of some TV sets. If you go further back in this thread here, I already talked about it somewhat. Below are some shots of the same SNES and amplified Red-Y/Blue-Y output mod using the native Luma as recommended:

Image v. CRT 32" TV Image

Not just my USB device, if I take it to my modern 19" Samsung LCD TV, the green level is also decoded properly and looks fluorescent like it should (this green water background of SSFII is a good test for this)! Notice the blue and red levels are pretty matching, but green is off on the CRT 32" TV on the right, etc. However, on this very SAME CRT 32" TV, if I switch to S-Video, the green will appear more fluorescent like it should. That happens, even with my DVD player's S-Video output versus the YPbPr output, so it's not a matter of not having a perfectly compliant YPbPr signal in the first place.

Try another TV, other than that, I don't know of any way to fix this as, like I said, it happens in my case even with professional devices (DVD player) and their YPbPr outputs.

My problem arent like these one that you talked about and showed on those pictures. The problem is my screen are "pink" and blue only, something like that. I dont see any green color at all. The component of the tv is fine, because i use my PS2 and 3 on their component and the colors are amazing. I already tried it on 1 crt tv, one 42 plasma and one 32 lcd and the same thing happen. Below are some pictures of what im talking about. By the way... im very gratefull for your quick reply NightWolf. Very Thanks and if you can help a little more, you or somebody, i will appreciate even more.

ImageUploaded with ImageShack.com

And

ImageUploaded with ImageShack.com

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NightWolve
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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by NightWolve » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:15 pm

1) Does the video chip say S-ENC anywhere on it or BA6592F ?? This link lists the known chips that this mod will work with:

http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3525.0
a) BA6592F
b) S-ENC
c) S-ENC B BA6594AF

If the chip says S-RGB anywhere, this will not work, your SNES unit is too new!!

2) You need to amplify either both or one of the Red-Y/Blue-Y signals. You could always just amplify both instead of trying to figure out if there's an imbalance to take advantage of. A simple transistor amp like mine here will do:

http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index. ... ic=14417.0

3) You said you pulled the Luma from pin 7 of the video chip, that is wrong! You need to pull the native, properly amplified Luma from the S-Video pin at the Multi-AV out like I show in my image (Follow the color green, the 4th pin there, top left). A previous user here tried to amplify the Luma himself directly from the chip which is totally unnecessary, and why his mod was failing early on.

4) Just to be very clear, there should ONLY be TWO wires soldered to the video chip for Red-Y and Blue-Y! Luma/Y is properly amplified on these models for the S-Video output and should be obtained from here (the Multi-AV out area, the 4th pin from the left):

Image

Actual mod job by someone:

Image

You need to scrape that metal pretty good with a flat screwdriver or whatever, get it really shiny, use separate flux if need be, and then you should be able to solder a wire to it. That Luma is pretty rock-solid, ready for TV use (though it was tweaked for an 8 foot S-Video cable), as most here agree.
Last edited by NightWolve on Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:05 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by vingadorjr2 » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:30 pm

NightWolve wrote:1) Does the video chip say S-ENC anywhere on it or BA6592F ?? This link lists the known chips that this mod will work with:

http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3525.0
a) BA6592F
b) S-ENC
c) S-ENC B BA6594AF

If the chip says S-RGB anywhere, this will not work, your SNES unit is too new!!

2) You need to amplify either both or one of the Red-Y/Blue-Y signals. You could always just amplify both instead of trying to figure out if there's an imbalance to take advantage of. A simple transistor amp like mine here will do:

http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index. ... ic=14417.0

3) You said you pulled the Luma from pin 7 of the video chip, that is wrong! You need to pull the native, properly amplified Luma from the S-Video pin at the Multi-AV out like I show in my image (Follow the color green, the 4th pin there, top left). A previous user here tried to amplify the Luma himself directly from the chip which is totally unnecessary, and why his mod was failing early on.

My chip says S-RGB. Its the 1Chip SNES model. Ive soldered the Luma from the S-Video pin at the Multi-AV out AND, just for test, from the Luma out on the chip too. The same result, "pink" screen. If i amplify the red and/or blue, doesnt it going to become even more red and/or blue? I dont think it can solve the problem. The problem seems to be the lack of green from the Y out on the RGB chip. It seems that the S-ENC ones alred comes with some sort of green signal on the Luma that make the diference, but not the RGB ones... but im not 100% sure of this. In any case... the mods from the snes model, the 1Chip, are supposed to be amazing in regards picture quality and many people already done this with 100% sucess.... but i dont seen to find any tutorial teaching how to do the 1Chip. Unfortunately. :/
Last edited by vingadorjr2 on Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by NightWolve » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:32 pm

vingadorjr2 wrote:My chip says S-RGB. Its the 1Chip SNES model. Ive soldered the Luma from the S-Video pin at the Multi-AV out AND, just for test, from the Luma out on the chip too. The same result, "pink" screen. If i amplify the red and/or blue, doesnt it going to becamo even more red and/or blue? I dont think it can solve the problem. The problem seems to be the lack of green from the Y out on the RGB chip.
Sorry, you can stop right there, you have the wrong model. End of the story. You can only tap S-Video from these models... :( You have NO working Red-Y and Blue-Y outputs from that S-RGB video chip (pin 1 and pin 24 are SOMETHING ELSE), so it's not going to work no matter what you try... You would need an external encoder (like JROK) which would tap the Sync, and RGB lines and produce a genuine YPbPr signal if you really wanted it... Only other option is to buy another used SNES model, the 1st generation ones and check that it's made on 1990 to 1993 and what not.
the mods from the snes model, the 1Chip, are supposed to be amazing in regards picture quality and many people already done this with 100% sucess
Yes, but they're talking about S-Video! Nintendo forgot to at least provide external support for that unlike older models, but you can tap it yourself and get great results. Some people think that the S-Video output on these models (after you tap it) is better than the output with a YPbPr mod on the older models. Regardless if this model actually has a working S-Video output from the Multi-AV out, its video chip is still the S-RGB, so you have no Red-Y/Blue-Y signals to tap and use...

See: http://console5.com/wiki/File:SNES-V2-S ... ctions.jpg
http://console5.com/wiki/SNES#S-Video_O ... SNN-CPU.29
Y/C video exists at the RGB encoder on the SNES 2 units, but Nintendo decided not to connect it to the Multi AV port. Luckily it's easy to add a few components and restore S-video!
You mistakenly got your hopes up here, sorry.
vingadorjr2 wrote:It seems that the S-ENC ones alred comes with some sort of green signal on the Luma that make the diference
A Luma (black'n'white) TV signal is built by always mixing ALL colors, RGB plus the H/V Composite Sync signal. That's not the problem here. Since you don't have proper Red-Y/Blue-Y signals produced from this chip, green could NEVER be properly decoded... You'll have to just stick with S-Video. I tend to get redundant and verbose, but yeah, you're SOL here.
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