We've been called out

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93143
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Re: We've been called out

Post by 93143 »

Espozo wrote:FMV on the SNES or the Genesis are going to look very obvious.
Not if you do 2bpp on PAL, and be careful with the colours. Elix did exactly that with their first demo, though I think the main point was the music (they were working on a tracker, but it seems to have been moved to the back burner).

EDIT: I'm going by what other people said. I have not personally verified that nu was prerendered.
Last edited by 93143 on Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Drew Sebastino
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Re: We've been called out

Post by Drew Sebastino »

...And it still sucked. :lol:
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TOUKO
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Re: We've been called out

Post by TOUKO »

My statement on sampled audio size, was not to criticize the demo or if it's real time or not .
Its just for pointing the fact that if you want quality samples, you must spend a big bunch of ROM, nothing else . :D

It's obvius that OD2 use some big prerender tables in ROM, you cannot do complex math like sin,cos,tan in realtime,but the display construction is,and i don't think that all the GFX+code take 4.8 Mbytes,but for me the essential is that OD2 rocks and is very enjoyable with the good spirit of demoscene in it ..
EDIT: I'm going by what other people said. I have not personally verified that nu was prerendered.
The coder (ferris) did not deny that fact,so i think all was really a simple FMV.
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: We've been called out

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

Khaz wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:35 pm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeGdJk5zb6c

7:41 - "This concludes our Mega Drive journey. We hope it has been enjoyable. Looking forward to some proper "Super Nintendo" competition :^)"

Are we just gonna take this lying down? :P
Based on my time here for the last few months and the fact nothing has really happened in the SNES demo scene for ages and certainly no cool new SNES games have been created and the like--everyone's even down my throat at the very notion of me thinking about doing something on SNES for the sake of actually showing off how capable it is and competing with the Genesis--yup, it seem like that's exactly what is happening.

I mean, I really want to do some stuff to show the SNES off, and I tried some concepts with the hope of getting someone to work on a full game with me that pushed Mode 0 to the limit (one I'd actually like to release as a physical commercial SNES game ideally):

https://youtu.be/IyrOCNQc_rs

https://youtu.be/ytNUcBYcEuI

But no one seems to give a shit about doing anything of particular note really, at least not as of April 2022, not that I can see.

And the Genesis demo and dev scene is pissing on the SNES demo and dev scene right now: https://twitter.com/i/status/1439095047924981760 (running on a stock Genesis with no enhancement chips or whatever)
psycopathicteen
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Re: We've been called out

Post by psycopathicteen »

I recognize you from commenting on my youtube channel "Aaendi" and about my Alisha's Adventure homebrew. I'm still trying to get my homebrew game finished. I really want to see something like this get made for the SNES too, but it's really hard to do all this at once. Kulor from SNESdev discord has a nice bullet-hell shooter game going.

Something that I've came to notice with my homebrew game is that a lot of times, something looks off about something, but I can't pinpoint it.
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tokumaru
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Re: We've been called out

Post by tokumaru »

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:57 pmyup, it seem like that's exactly what is happening.
Coding amazing games is not trivial at all, and during the time you've been here you've seen that coding for the SNES is no picnic. The problem is that for the rest of us it just looks like you're constantly bitching about other people not doing what you'd like them to be doing, while you yourself are not capable of doing anything either.
I mean, I really want to do some stuff to show the SNES off, and I tried some concepts with the hope of getting someone to work on a full game with me that pushed Mode 0 to the limit (one I'd actually like to release as a physical commercial SNES game ideally)
I understand your frustration of loving a platform and not seeing it being used to the maximum of its capabilities, but constantly complaining that other people aren't doing all of the heavy lifting doesn't help at all.

Good coders really don't like partnering up with "idea guys" that don't bring any useful skills to a project and just want to see their "precious" ideas come to life. Maybe if they're being paid, but if you can't shell out the cash, it's very unlikely that a good coder will offer to help bring YOUR grandiose ideas to life.

If this really is as important to you as your insistence on this subject suggests, you should work harder on learning how to code games yourself. Every other retro coder got where they are now after years of dedication, and if you really want to be in a position where you have as much power in your hands as they do, you have no choice other than to put an equivalent amount of effort into it.

And don't expect to come up with the ultimate Genesis-crushing SNES game right on your first try either... Making games is really hard, and even a "typical" SNES game that doesn't push any hardware limits is incredibly hard to do, requiring lots of planning and discipline.

It's really easy being the guy cheering others from the stands, and there's absolutely no shortage of that... but you're not gonna make any significant difference in the SNES coding scene if you settle for that position.
Oziphantom
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Re: We've been called out

Post by Oziphantom »

in case you missed it

I won Revision 2021 Old Skool with a SNES demo https://www.pouet.net/party.php?which=1550&when=2021

We were also nominated for the Meteoriks award this year for Mid Skool demo. Sadly we didn't win, but even seeing a SNES demo nominated is a huge thing.

I think the SNES sits just on the other side of the "too hard line", the MD is still in 3 man territory while pushing a SNES takes about double again, putting you into 6~7 people territory. It's hard to get that many people on to do a single game unless there is something else pushing it.
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: We've been called out

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

Oziphantom wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 1:16 am in case you missed it

I won Revision 2021 Old Skool with a SNES demo https://www.pouet.net/party.php?which=1550&when=2021

We were also nominated for the Meteoriks award this year for Mid Skool demo. Sadly we didn't win, but even seeing a SNES demo nominated is a huge thing.

I think the SNES sits just on the other side of the "too hard line", the MD is still in 3 man territory while pushing a SNES takes about double again, putting you into 6~7 people territory. It's hard to get that many people on to do a single game unless there is something else pushing it.
Yeah, I saw that, and it's about the best thing to come out for SNES for ages, and even that's a year old at this point, right?

I honestly just despair that demos like this aren't coming out for the SNES every couple of months or so, and also that so few new SNES games ever seem to appear (I've seen absolutely no brand new physical games in eons). While Genesis seems to be getting all the love, both in the demo scene and with it seems like a brand new physical game announced/released every month or two.

As a total SNES fanboy, it's is kinda depressing. And, like I said, I'm coming up with ideas for novel ways of pushing the SNES, and obviously creating some art and doing basic programming tests myself (in GM 8.1), with the idea of making an actual real SNES game, where I'd happily work on the design and create the art too--and I have loads of original ideas and ways of really showing off the console*--yet no one seems to care.

Again, these are a couple of my tests:

https://youtu.be/IyrOCNQc_rs

https://youtu.be/ytNUcBYcEuI

PS. There's other stuff I've worked on in my YouTube channel too, including a VR game, a Steam submission and a bunch of mobile games. And I used to work for both RARE and Rockstar, as both an artist/animator and level designer, so I have some actual experience working in the industry as well. You can actually check it out all my games, art, animation, and even VR novella here: https://inceptionalnews.wordpress.com/i ... als-games/. All of which I want to bring to the table in doing something on SNES, if some wants to actually work on something.

*Maybe this is something I could talk to you about (a few ideas I have for cool [probably playable] demos), since I have quite a few ideas that could just exist as tech demos for the demo scene (as part of one of your compilations or whatever), which, I promise, would be dang impressive if done right? But, really, I actually want to make a proper physical and commercial SNES game--that's the ultimate goal for me personally.
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: We've been called out

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

psycopathicteen wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:40 pm I recognize you from commenting on my youtube channel "Aaendi" and about my Alisha's Adventure homebrew. I'm still trying to get my homebrew game finished. I really want to see something like this get made for the SNES too, but it's really hard to do all this at once. Kulor from SNESdev discord has a nice bullet-hell shooter game going.

Something that I've came to notice with my homebrew game is that a lot of times, something looks off about something, but I can't pinpoint it.
Yeah, and your game has some dang impressive stuff in it, precisely because you thought outside the box and really coded the hell out of it. The real-time sprite rotation is very cool, as is the amount of stuff going on at times.
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Señor Ventura
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Re: We've been called out

Post by Señor Ventura »

So... as far as i am understanding, Has high res mode 5 not real advantages in terms of definition, then?.

I'm always had the consideration that the snes reaches the resolution OR the high colour count of games like this (not the uncompressed tiles style):
https://youtu.be/2-4hzuYulW0?t=182


Never the two at a same time, but surely one, or another.

...and, Are most of you disagree?.
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: We've been called out

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

Señor Ventura wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:24 pm So... as far as i am understanding, Has high res mode 5 not real advantages in terms of definition, then?.

I'm always had the consideration that the snes reaches the resolution OR the high colour count of games like this (not the uncompressed tiles style):
https://youtu.be/2-4hzuYulW0?t=182


Never the two at a same time, but surely one, or another.

...and, Are most of you disagree?.
The consensus is that SNES can absolutely do both high res and high colour at the same time--that's what these guys tell me anyway--just no one has actually done it in a proper game yet (during actual gameplay). . . .

I'm thinking you could probably do a game like the one you posted in SNES' high-res high-colour mode but just with a lot more tile repetition (so you just have to be really creative with how you use less tiles to create something that still looks good).

At the very least, I'd be curious to know how many unique tiles the SNES can show in high-res high-colour mode for the tile map (and do I basically just draw everything at double size, so I'm actually drawing things in 16x16 tiles in reality), and work my way out from there--anyone?
lidnariq
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Re: We've been called out

Post by lidnariq »

Señor Ventura wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:24 pm So... as far as i am understanding, Has high res mode 5 not real advantages in terms of definition, then?.
Mode 5 has some clear advantages. It also has some serious challenges that make effective use difficult.

The SNES, like the Genesis and the TurboGrafx, has 64KiB of VRAM. Unlike the latter two, the SNES provides a wealth of different ways to interpret its memory to display different things, while both of the latter are always just two or one 4bpp planes with palette selection - the Genesis's 4 palettes are no-where near enough, and the TurboGrafx's 32 palettes seem a bit daunting to use effectively.

On these consoles, the display is always divided into regions of 8x8 pixels that I'll call "tiles" for the purpose of explanation.

Unlike the Genesis and TurboGrafx, where every tile can pick from the entire 2048-tile library that fills all of VRAM, the SNES is limited to 1024 tiles. This is mostly fine, but requires a little more planning on the SNES side - you can only choose between half of all of VRAM (in 4bpp layers), but since you need it to store the other state (sprites, how to lay the tiles on screen especially if you have more than one layer).

Mode 5, unfortunately, has a significant handicap. You still appear to have a library of 1024 tiles, except that the S-PPU always draws the tile you specified, and the one immediately next to it. Now your effective library is only 512 tiles, which reduces the complexity of what you can display on screen.

It would have been nice if mode 5 had instead done independent fetches for the left and right tile, displaying actually 64 fully independent tiles on each row. Sure, there no longer would have been enough time for the 2nd layer to also be 512px, but the first layer would have been enough more versatile that it probably would have made up for it. Or maybe I'm missing the point, and the 512px 2bpp layer was the actual objective, for higher-detail text.
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Nikku4211
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Re: We've been called out

Post by Nikku4211 »

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:57 pm Based on my time here for the last few months and the fact nothing has really happened in the SNES demo scene for ages and certainly no cool new SNES games have been created and the like--everyone's even down my throat at the very notion of me thinking about doing something on SNES for the sake of actually showing off how capable it is and competing with the Genesis--yup, it seem like that's exactly what is happening.
Oh, wow. Way to play the victim.

We just brought facts about the SNES' hardware into your little threads and now apparently we're the ones raining on your parade?

Hold on, let me get the world's smallest violin BRR sample.
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:57 pm But no one seems to give a shit about doing anything of particular note really, at least not as of April 2022, not that I can see.
Are you fucking kidding me?

NovaYoshi's making Nova 2, Kulour's making a shoot 'em up (which has a single level in mode 5, interlaced even) with plenty of sprites, Psychopathicteen's still making his anime run n' gun game, Undisbeliever's making a top-down action-adventure game with swords, Secondsun's making a racing game that scales plenty of software sprites using the Super FX chip, Oziphantom just ported Qwak from the Commodore 64 to the SNES(by proxy of the Commander X16 port)...

...and you have the gall to tell those very people, half of which are in this very forum, that you think no one gives a shit about doing anything of particular note just because games aren't releasing faster and faster.
2ADayJonTron.png
Honestly, I'd rather have games that take longer to make, than hundreds of boring, half-baked games that are really just asset flips like what GB Studio did to GBDev.
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:57 pm And the Genesis demo and dev scene is pissing on the SNES demo and dev scene right now: https://twitter.com/i/status/1439095047924981760 (running on a stock Genesis with no enhancement chips or whatever)
Okay?

Cool?

What's the problem with that?

They want their Star Fox, they've worked hard and got it.

Next thing I know you're going to tell me that the N64Dev scene is pissing on the SNES demo and Dev scene.
tokumaru wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:55 pm And don't expect to come up with the ultimate Genesis-crushing SNES game right on your first try either... Making games is really hard, and even a "typical" SNES game that doesn't push any hardware limits is incredibly hard to do, requiring lots of planning and discipline.
In fact, don't even expect to come up with the ultimate NES-crushing SNES game right on your 1st try. Or even a full game full stop.

Especially with tools like SuperFamiConv that struggle to properly convert images into 16x8 tiles.
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:23 am Yeah, I saw that, and it's about the best thing to come out for SNES for ages, and even that's a year old at this point, right?
AgesSNESl.png
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:23 am As a total SNES fanboy, it's is kinda depressing. And, like I said, I'm coming up with ideas for novel ways of pushing the SNES, and obviously creating some art and doing basic programming tests myself (in GM 8.1), with the idea of making an actual real SNES game, where I'd happily work on the design and create the art too--and I have loads of original ideas and ways of really showing off the console*--yet no one seems to care.
I wonder why. -_-
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:23 am PS. There's other stuff I've worked on in my YouTube channel too, including a VR game, a Steam submission and a bunch of mobile games. And I used to work for both RARE and Rockstar, as both an artist/animator and level designer, so I have some actual experience working in the industry as well. You can actually check it out all my games, art, animation, and even VR novella here: https://inceptionalnews.wordpress.com/i ... als-games/. All of which I want to bring to the table in doing something on SNES, if some wants to actually work on something.
Okay, but were you ever a SNES programmer though?

You might have some secondhand experience if you were working for RARE and DMA Design in the early-to-mid 1990s, but you certainly don't have firsthand experience with SNES programming.
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:23 am *Maybe this is something I could talk to you about (a few ideas I have for cool [probably playable] demos), since I have quite a few ideas that could just exist as tech demos for the demo scene (as part of one of your compilations or whatever), which, I promise, would be dang impressive if done right? But, really, I actually want to make a proper physical and commercial SNES game--that's the ultimate goal for me personally.
What are you waiting for?
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:47 pm At the very least, I'd be curious to know how many unique tiles the SNES can show in high-res high-colour mode for the tile map (and do I basically just draw everything at double size, so I'm actually drawing things in 16x16 tiles in reality), and work my way out from there--anyone?
The absolute max in terms of unique tiles in mode 5 for the 4BPP layer is 512, but that means you have only 30720 bytes left for all the other stuff, including sprites and layer 2.

How many unique tiles can fit at a given time depends on how much VRAM is already taken by sprite graphics, but that depends on the size and resolution you want each character to be, and how many characters you want in a particular scene.
lidnariq wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:35 pm Mode 5, unfortunately, has a significant handicap. You still appear to have a library of 1024 tiles, except that the S-PPU always draws the tile you specified, and the one immediately next to it. Now your effective library is only 512 tiles, which reduces the complexity of what you can display on screen.
Wait, so that means that if I have a tilemap in 16x8 where one entry specifies 0 for the tile number and the next entry specifies 1 for the tile number, instead of displaying the actual next 16x8 tile, it instead displays the right half of the first 16x8 tile and the left half of the second 16x8 tile as if it was its own 16x8 tile?

I wonder if that's a factor in why SuperFamiConv has issues with generating 16x8 tiles...
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Fiskbit
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Re: We've been called out

Post by Fiskbit »

Nikku, your post is unacceptable. You're ensuring that this is just a flame war with no chance of being constructive. I've reached out to other staff to try to decide what best to do here, since I don't really want to lock this thread, but I'm going to start by asking people to drop this argument.
Oziphantom
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Re: We've been called out

Post by Oziphantom »

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:23 am
Oziphantom wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 1:16 am in case you missed it

I won Revision 2021 Old Skool with a SNES demo https://www.pouet.net/party.php?which=1550&when=2021

We were also nominated for the Meteoriks award this year for Mid Skool demo. Sadly we didn't win, but even seeing a SNES demo nominated is a huge thing.

I think the SNES sits just on the other side of the "too hard line", the MD is still in 3 man territory while pushing a SNES takes about double again, putting you into 6~7 people territory. It's hard to get that many people on to do a single game unless there is something else pushing it.
Yeah, I saw that, and it's about the best thing to come out for SNES for ages, and even that's a year old at this point, right?

I honestly just despair that demos like this aren't coming out for the SNES every couple of months or so, and also that so few new SNES games ever seem to appear (I've seen absolutely no brand new physical games in eons). While Genesis seems to be getting all the love, both in the demo scene and with it seems like a brand new physical game announced/released every month or two.
Well the demo took 2 years to make so don't expect them to come very often.
As a total SNES fanboy, it's is kinda depressing. And, like I said, I'm coming up with ideas for novel ways of pushing the SNES, and obviously creating some art and doing basic programming tests myself (in GM 8.1), with the idea of making an actual real SNES game, where I'd happily work on the design and create the art too--and I have loads of original ideas and ways of really showing off the console*--yet no one seems to care.

Again, these are a couple of my tests:

https://youtu.be/IyrOCNQc_rs

https://youtu.be/ytNUcBYcEuI

PS. There's other stuff I've worked on in my YouTube channel too, including a VR game, a Steam submission and a bunch of mobile games. And I used to work for both RARE and Rockstar, as both an artist/animator and level designer, so I have some actual experience working in the industry as well. You can actually check it out all my games, art, animation, and even VR novella here: https://inceptionalnews.wordpress.com/i ... als-games/. All of which I want to bring to the table in doing something on SNES, if some wants to actually work on something.

*Maybe this is something I could talk to you about (a few ideas I have for cool [probably playable] demos), since I have quite a few ideas that could just exist as tech demos for the demo scene (as part of one of your compilations or whatever), which, I promise, would be dang impressive if done right? But, really, I actually want to make a proper physical and commercial SNES game--that's the ultimate goal for me personally.
Doing a shoot-em-up on the SNES will be the bankable move, conventional wisdom is that Snes fans love their shoot-em-ups. They also have a low engine requirement, and are fast to put together(unless you go all out bullet hell as Kulor is doing).
That being said my services are in high demand and I have a lot of banked up projects I have to do first. I have a C64 port to finish, a AAA C64 to finish, the 4K crap tastic compo entries to finish and possibly a game will be upscaled for the NES compo. So I'm not going to be available for quite some time. I also have an idea for a insane chessboard SNES one parter.

But work on getting the game play sorted, forget fancy graphical effects for now, just get the patterns and player movements sorted. Having a complete game and gameplay sorted out would then make it much easier to ship it around to a SNES programmer to finish it. Once you have the base game up and running you can then go to town on effects with what is left in RAM/CPU etc.
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