We've been called out

Discussion of hardware and software development for Super NES and Super Famicom.

Moderator: Moderators

Forum rules
  • For making cartridges of your Super NES games, see Reproduction.
User avatar
HihiDanni
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:25 pm

Re: We've been called out

Post by HihiDanni » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:34 pm

TmEE wrote:It has been out for a while now :

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ST9 ... V8saY8/pub
This is not an explanation of individual effects, it's a list of hardware notes snarkily aimed at emulator devs (presumably to maintain the smoke and mirrors).

If this is the Sega community's idea of getting SNESers involved in the demoscene, you can count me out.
SNES NTSC 2/1/3 1CHIP | serial number UN318588627

93143
Posts: 1225
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:31 pm

Re: We've been called out

Post by 93143 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:01 pm

I dunno; to me it just reads like a summary of research notes by someone who thinks it's fun to mess around with the Mega Drive. My understanding was that a specific explanation of all of the stunts they pulled in Overdrive 2 was not the intent of that document, and that something more along those lines would be forthcoming.

...I feel like if Titan is allowed to use debug transparency even though it fails on some units, we should at least be allowed to use DMA and HDMA at the same time without careful timing, and maybe subtractive delta luminance in a DMA direct colour video mode...

User avatar
HihiDanni
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:25 pm

Re: We've been called out

Post by HihiDanni » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:24 pm

93143 wrote:I dunno; to me it just reads like a summary of research notes by someone who thinks it's fun to mess around with the Mega Drive. My understanding was that a specific explanation of all of the stunts they pulled in Overdrive 2 was not the intent of that document, and that something more along those lines would be forthcoming.
The post kind of implied that this was that explanation doc. They could still be working on that writeup but I'm not really sure why it's taking so long.

Realtalk: Kinda already mentioned before but I don't really want to make a demo, in part because I want to be honest and upfront with the stuff that I do, and also because I don't want to engage in platform wars. I want to have meaningful conversations about retro hardware, not angry Internet Arguments(tm). Fuck that. The only way I could make a demo is if I could make it into a labor of love rather than something done out of spite but given the current vitriol I'd consider this to be nearly impossible. Others are welcome to try though.

I'm just gonna focus on homebrew instead. Most of the driving force behind my work there has been both designing things for other developers to use, and getting to talk about silly weird hardware quirks, even if that makes my preferred system look bad. This kind of thing should be fun, damnit!
SNES NTSC 2/1/3 1CHIP | serial number UN318588627

psycopathicteen
Posts: 2948
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 6:12 pm

Re: We've been called out

Post by psycopathicteen » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:47 pm

I do much better work when I am not just trying to compete (though I do kind've want to finish that little checkerboard parallax thing I started even if it's not my original idea). Something I've been thinking about trying is drawing software sprites on a Mode-7 layer, similar to how Galaxy Force arcade game draws graphics.

User avatar
Sumez
Posts: 920
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:29 am
Location: Denmark (PAL)

Re: We've been called out

Post by Sumez » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:58 am

Feel free to make a SNES demo as a labor of love. :) I see no reason for animosity between programmers based on different platform choices. There's a ton of awesome stuff you can do with the SNES - doesn't matter if the Mega Drive can do the same, just make something cool.

User avatar
tokumaru
Posts: 11859
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:43 pm
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

Re: We've been called out

Post by tokumaru » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:47 am

No need to argue about which 16-bit console has the best hardware in 2017... They're all shit by today's standards!

User avatar
Sumez
Posts: 920
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:29 am
Location: Denmark (PAL)

Re: We've been called out

Post by Sumez » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:59 am

I love that way of putting it. DigitalFoundry would have hated the SNES.

User avatar
TOUKO
Posts: 302
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:14 am

Re: We've been called out

Post by TOUKO » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:16 am

Sumez wrote:Feel free to make a SNES demo as a labor of love. :) I see no reason for animosity between programmers based on different platform choices. There's a ton of awesome stuff you can do with the SNES - doesn't matter if the Mega Drive can do the same, just make something cool.
i agree, and you should rather don't take the titan's words for a console war, take it as a mutual motivation between the both platforms, and nothing else .
Really, i don't see any animosity from the titan's guys .

User avatar
Sumez
Posts: 920
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:29 am
Location: Denmark (PAL)

Re: We've been called out

Post by Sumez » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:32 am

That was my assumption too, but then I saw the guy posting here... No reason to stoop to that level though :)

User avatar
FrankenGraphics
Formerly WheelInventor
Posts: 2032
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:55 am
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Contact:

Re: We've been called out

Post by FrankenGraphics » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:47 am

One thing i'd like to see on the SNES today is a step away from the tech-demoiness of many of its games. I hope i don't tread on too many nostalgic toes by saying so. But one thing i reacted to as a kid was that NES games could often be more pretty, beautiful or distinct (subjective, i know) than snes counterparts because they were obsessed with maximising the use of colours in smudgy gradients. I don't think the console had a long enough cycle to see a rollback of that aesthetic. It's also a child of the early 90s, so there's that.
http://www.frankengraphics.com - personal NES blog

User avatar
tokumaru
Posts: 11859
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:43 pm
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

Re: We've been called out

Post by tokumaru » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:30 pm

FrankenGraphics wrote:But one thing i reacted to as a kid was that NES games could often be more pretty, beautiful or distinct (subjective, i know) than snes counterparts because they were obsessed with maximising the use of colours in smudgy gradients.
I agree. A lot of SNES artists were just using more colors because they could, without stopping to think whether they should.

I cringe every time I compare Return of the Joker on the NES against Revenge of the Joker on the SNES. It's incredible how the 8-bit version of the game is better than both 16-bit versions (I'm including the Genesis version here) in every possible way!

User avatar
Sumez
Posts: 920
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:29 am
Location: Denmark (PAL)

Re: We've been called out

Post by Sumez » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:08 pm

I especially feel that the classic side scrolling action game took a hit on the SNES, due to the ability to display much bigger sprites with no penalty. Once again, developers did because they could, before stopping to consider whether they should. The only games on the SNES I can think of that come close to that same feeling of the NES classics are Hagane, Contra 3, and Majyuuou.

tepples
Posts: 22052
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:12 pm
Location: NE Indiana, USA (NTSC)
Contact:

Re: We've been called out

Post by tepples » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:28 pm

True. The downside of bigger sprites is bigger backgrounds, and bigger backgrounds mean less distance between the player and the edge of the visible portion of the map when measured in character heights. This in turn means either slower movement or less player reaction time. I had to explain this to the artist of Haunted: Halloween '85 early in development.

User avatar
FrankenGraphics
Formerly WheelInventor
Posts: 2032
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:55 am
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Contact:

Re: We've been called out

Post by FrankenGraphics » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:55 pm

Ironically, having more colours to choose from for a sprite can help give a smaller sprite/metasprite the definition it'd risk lacking on a NES or SMS. That's rarely how they thought at the time.

I think a parallel can be drawn between GB and SNES in the regard of platformers. But on the SNES it was by choice, whereas the only option to fit a larger portion of a level on the GB screen was pixel ants a la Super Mario Land.
http://www.frankengraphics.com - personal NES blog

User avatar
HihiDanni
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:25 pm

Re: We've been called out

Post by HihiDanni » Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:18 pm

Am I the only one who feels like graphics on the NES were actually a bit too small? There just seems like a lot of empty underutilized space between objects. Reaction time is a concern with larger sprites, but it mostly comes down to what you're actually doing with your sprites. You can have small sprites that move really fast, and you end up with weird looking stuff like characters powerwalking at 80 miles an hour.

Having roughly 32x32-sized sprites seems like the sweet spot, IMO.
SNES NTSC 2/1/3 1CHIP | serial number UN318588627

Post Reply