YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

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Markfrizb
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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by Markfrizb » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:16 pm

This rgb is kicking my butt!

I tried connecting pin 3 of the AV port directly to my monitor sync line... Nothing
I tried connecting the composite video to my sync line .... Nothing.
And of course running the sync through my sync stripper doesn't work..
I'm beginning to think that it's not my sync that's at issue here.

I tried 75 ohm resistors from RGB to ground
I have the 220uf caps inline with my RGB output.

I tried a CRT rgb monitor
I tried a LCD that is part of my test rig and works on about 65% of my snes's

I'm really banging my head against the wall here. :(

I'm very open to suggestions here. Thanks in advance.

Edit: here's the weird part... All my monitors have the "no signal" messages and then go to sleep mode. Thing is... They all act like they are getting signal. Power light stays on and the "no signal" message doesn't show up.

Ramsis, can you email me your connection you use??

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Ramsis
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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by Ramsis » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:44 am

Markfrizb wrote:Ramsis, can you email me your connection you use??
Have a look at these schematics -- the second one is the one for NTSC consoles. :)
Some of my projects:
Furry RPG!
Unofficial SNES PowerPak firmware
(See my GitHub profile for more)

Markfrizb
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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by Markfrizb » Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:58 am

I did look at them. I based my adapter on those diagrams a few years ago.

I ordered on of the fancy snes scart rgb cables. Maybe it'll reveal something I missed.

Thanks Ramsis. With the exception of a resistor, that is how mine is wired except my sync line doesn't come from pin 3 (because the cables I bought didn't have an internal connection to pin 3) but rather I strip the sync from CV.

Mark

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marvelus10
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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by marvelus10 » Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:00 pm

My Super Famicom went on the fritz last night. While playing for a couple hours the colours started flickering, things like the coin logo at the beginning of Super Mario All Stars was a dark shade of orange not gold anymore red seemed to be a dominant colour. Blue was lacking in strength too.
I tried disconnecting the YPbPr connector and trying S-Video with no luck I also tried Composite with no luck. I guess my BA6594AF couldn't handle it and died, I never bothered to try any of the different circuits people had devised here because I had no issues with dull faded colours.

I guess this could be a warning for those who have done the basic mod like I did to a BA6594AF encoder, it may not last. I know a couple of the guys over at Sega16 were trying to use these encoders for a component project and had a number of chips fail on them, so maybe they are sensitive.

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kriskizlyk
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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by kriskizlyk » Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:53 pm

I have decided to abandon my YPbPr boards that I made because this will solve all of my problems...PRE-ORDERED. Again, if you still want me to send you the little red boards that I made, please send me your address and I will snail mail you one.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DZIX3CQ/
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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by 3gengames » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:18 pm

Might as well hook up a PC to an LCD, it's basically the same thing.

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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by tepples » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:23 pm

A PC won't have a GBA slot and an NES slot. It'll only have a Genesis slot and a Super NES slot, but that might be enough for you. The average desktop PC is also a heck of a lot bigger than a game console, which may hurt the spouse acceptance factor of connecting it to a TV-sized monitor.

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Jeroen
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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by Jeroen » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:52 pm

tepples wrote:A PC won't have a GBA slot and an NES slot. It'll only have a Genesis slot and a Super NES slot, but that might be enough for you. The average desktop PC is also a heck of a lot bigger than a game console, which may hurt the spouse acceptance factor of connecting it to a TV-sized monitor.
They're working on gba support https://www.retrode.com/plug-in-adapters/

As for nes support, does copynes count? It's not fully automatic though.

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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by tepples » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:58 pm

Jeroen wrote:As for nes support [on PC], does copynes count? It's not fully automatic though.
It doesn't count for the target audience of things like RetroN 5 and Retrode because it isn't sold as a finished product ready for connecting to a PC. Building one requires soldering.

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NightWolve
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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by NightWolve » Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:31 am

Ste wrote:Hey, NightWolve. Long time, no speak. I played Celceta at E3 this year. It was pretty sweet. I might have to buy a Vita for that one. Anyway, if you're still hanging around Chicago we should meet up and chat about console video mods.
Hiya Ste. Yeah, long time. Hey, I thought you were gonna help perfect the Red-Y/Blue-Y amp last time we chatted, no ??

As for Celceta, if it's published here by XSEED Games in the future, then it's just auto-boycotted by me with zero consideration. Whatever they publish, I willed myself not to give a shit! I got tired of just trying to forget that I was cheated by them and my criminal translating partner, so now I just got a big ole boycott message on my website and I'm gonna recompile all of my Ys-related and other software to also throw up boycott messages in the future. Payback to the asshole employee (Tom "wyrdwad" Lipschultz) that orchestrated the deals to take the fan translation work and make sure that I was excluded. It's a loooong story... My translator ported the fan translated scripts, handed them over, took 100% credit/100% profit, and played stupid with me ever since for 3 years (since 2010) - that was after some 7-8 years of pretending to be my friend... Last June though, the weasel finally came out of hiding, but that was just to threaten a libel lawsuit with "his lieyer..." He "lieyer'ed" up, or so he claims... It's all a great story to tell the kids one day, that's for sure! Hahaha!
If you're more interested in mods, hear what NightWolve has to say. He's a good guy and knows what he's doing.
Well, I appreciate that, but you're an actual electrical engineer, so you know a lot better than me! ;) I can still call out some bullshit from what I have learned, at the very least.

That's an interesting cable BTW, so you didn't ever try to mess with the Red-Y/Blue-Y pins off the S-ENC chip and use the ready-to-go Luma from the S-Video signal ? I don't remember you mentioning that you were planning this. I knew you were doing this for Genesis, though.

I'm hoping for someone with formal EE training AND an actual SNES unit with the S-ENC chip to design a transistor-based amp pretty much in the style of what's already there for the other signals. That's why I made this:

Image

The new, previously unknown information is that they added a pull-down capacitor to match the one after the transistor. So if 200 uF was used to filter the DC offset after the transistor, a 200 uF pulldown cap is used right before the output heads for the TV. Nobody else caught that in any circuit dump that I have seen, so far at least. This was the result of having 2 spare SNES motherboards and tracing all components starting from the S-ENC pins to the output pins at the Multi-AV out, etc. I verified every component with my VC99 DMM which can measure capacitance as well. So resistance and capacitance values are exact based on the DMM except for the pico caps since it can NOT measure anything below 1nF/1000 pF. For that, I'm relying on what the SNES schematic says that they are, 10 or 220 pF, etc.
kriskizlyk wrote:Image
Pretty nice, so you can just go straight to HDMI with this although you won't have full compatibility with every game. Err, just read more about this machine; they say they aim for 100% compatibility, that possible ?? Hm.

http://hyperkin.com/blog/2013/03/retron ... g-classic/
My Ys Fan Translation Projects.
http://www.ysutopia.net/

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kyuusaku
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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by kyuusaku » Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:16 am

NightWolve wrote:You had none, and simply wanted to reiterate that nobody here has done a good enough job of producing a Red-Y/Blue-Y amplifier circuit to your satisfaction!
Uh no? It's constructive criticism--something you don't appear to take too well.
Funny thing, you could've actually been helpful here with this alleged "simple remedy" using a single resistor, but you didn't bother to actually tell us how!
It's not a remedy. You can put another series source termination resistor on Y (driving another transmission line) and it will then be driving two 150 ohm loads (= 75 ohms). Whether the output (amplifier, whatever we're talking about at this point, I don't even remember) can drive a 75 ohm load or not I don't know. The safest bet is always drive a single 150 ohm load, which is the standard arrangement for consumer devices.
That's what this thread is all about or should be, to come up with the best Red-Y/Blue-Y amplifier circuit. Did we really need you to reiterate that ??
If that's what you believe, why grace the thread with 10,000 words of prose? It reads more like a political campaign now than a technical discussion to me. And you should speak for yourself, not "we". It needed "reiterating" or I wouldn't have; nobody else was talking about transmission lines. Now I'm not questioning your English comprehension, but for catching the difference your responses are confusingly off point to me.,.
How about instead you FINALLY just crack open your own SNES and dazzle us with what you could come up with ??
Because I don't mod consoles and don't care to encourage modding? Because circuit analysis is time consuming and I have more satisfying things to do? If you don't feel my contributions to the thread were of value, that's not my problem, it's yours.
I can't be the only that thinks it's time for you to put up or shut up!
Put up what? I've already explained as much as I could with the information I have. I do believe you're the only one offended.
Nobody, to my knowledge, has yet to claim that they came up with the perfect amp...
The op amps may not be perfect but surely they're close enough for this application.
REALLY ?? No sense at all, huh ?? Just a weird buffer that serves no purpose here ?? Well, let's see about that and how much sense you actually made...
OK, let's...
With his response here, he demonstrated no intellectual curiosity whatsoever!
Wait, what? You're not directly responding to me anymore? That's nice...
Instead of asking what this "protection" was all about
Me asking? Asking whom? I understand what a base resistor "is about". Or if you're talking about the diode I can postulate how the circuit will behave...
what my thinking was there (since I had arrived in the thread), he simply threw a "Hey, look at me, I say your circuit makes no sense!" type response

My bad. I felt compelled to call out bad design without regard to how it might affect the selfless good samaritan author's wittle feewings.

Without any kind of inquiry to what now?
I saw ego and arrogance there, didn't call him on it earlier, but am doing so now!
Really? I see an ego and arrogance too, funny how that is.
Somebody WITH a background in EE actually DID, though!
Oh gee, that changes everything! Appealing to authority are we? How about instead of worrying about defending honor you think critically about the critiques as I have explained them?
See, there's a particular way in which a transistor breaks down. It can short, and if the collector to base junction shorts, then that would wind up applying a genuine +5 DC voltage back to what's connected to the base which is...either a Red-Y or Blue-Y pin!!! I'd rather a diode facing outward to fully block that or a 1K resistor be there should something like that ever happen!
*Mindblown* So that's the purpose?
So, I'm supposed to take your word that if that happened, the S-ENC video chip could likely handle a genuine +5 VDC being applied back to it ??
Honestly the thought never occurred to me because uhh that won't happen.
So, it's hilarious that you would list an attempt to protect the S-ENC chip on a system no longer manufactured as one of 4 reasons why my circuit "doesn't make any sense..."
Hilarious huh?
You also complain that the 1K resistor would "hinder feedback," but ROHM engineers used 470 Ohms for the Luma, Chroma, Composite circuits where I used 1K for my simple Red-Y/Blue-Y circuit. Your shit doesn't seem to hold up very well.
Again appealing to authority *and* off the mark. The app engineer is concerned with "designing" the most economic output stage meeting whatever standards; they aren't concerned with making the most linear (faithful) video driver possible, as I'd hope you'd be if you knew better. The reason for their stray passives all over the place is to condition the signal for any number of reasons, NONE of which are to protect the encoder from a collector-base breakdown. The breakdown happens around 60V and seeing how the potential will only ever be less than 5V, your concern is akin to that of spontaneous combustion, Chief.
This is where YOU actually make NO sense!
No YOU, no YOU!! wahhhhh
SNES engineers chose 78 Ohms as the pull down resistance after the amplified transistor
Do you know why? Because it's close enough to 75 ohms source termination and made from two preferred values AND the ~39 ohm output impedance delivers the desired amplitude at the TV's load. Does that mean it's the best or even right way to do things? Uh no.
So, for my solid 80 Ohm resistor versus the 78 Ohm total in the native SNES Luma amplifier, my circuit "stopped making sense" partly cause of that ?? REAALLY ?? For 2 f--king Ohms ??

Not at all. It doesn't make sense because it wasn't chosen for the transfer curve it gives, it wasn't chosen for impedance matching qualities, it isn't to set some precision attenuation factor, you just chose a number, and number that isn't a preferred value. It's also a really low value to use with such a significant DC offset.

So, "lots of current waste" with that 78 Ohms by SNES/ROHM engineers then, right ??
It depends, but from your diagram where you give a 3V offset, that yields ~37 mA of quiescent current, which is what I was going by.
How about all the circuits that are even lower with 75 Ohms ?? I've seen plenty of that after a transistor!

Because all transistor circuits are the same, right?

My DMM read 2-3 V before the use of a pull down resistor and part of that is the DC offset of the video signal

Yes, exactly. Even 2V/80 is 25 mA wasted on a non-critical element of a crude amplifier. Professional video drivers often consume less than 25 mA INCLUDING the load and are comprised of sometimes tens of transistors. What you have is a really inefficient current sink.

You got a 470 Ohm resistor on their designs, so hardly NOTHING "current" wise would ever move through the base

The whole point of the common collector amplifier is that even without a base resistor little current flows through the base...

Nonetheless, why did I choose 470 uF originally ?? There's an answer for that, not that you cared at the time, because obviously you know better than SNES engineers and you ALSO know better than RCA engineers!

You think I've never seen a 470 uF AC coupling capacitor before? Large coupling capacitors have their uses when they're necessary. Technically you don't even need them in this app, they're left over from antiquated output stages to protect against shorts. They actually degrade the video quality irrespective of how large they are so it's best to have a DC coupled output.

It's not that I "know better" than these random designs, it's that not all applications are the same as you keep implying.


*snip*
*snip*
*snip*

That's right, as I said, the negative lead of those 3 capacitors that you see there, go straight to the RCA output jacks. Indeed, I used my DMM and did a continuity test. Only about 2-3 Ohms of resistance results from the trace path in between the RCA jacks and the negative lead of the 470 uF capacitors.

OK, and this is relevant how? It appears you've misconstrued something I said. I'm sure there is a 75 R in there somewhere, BTW--most likely in series before the C.

kyuusaku wrote:4) 15 ohms R at the output serves no purpose but to marginally attenuate an already "compliant" 80 IRE peak-to-peak signal. A proper series 75 ohm termination would attenuate the level to 40 IRE which would really break things.
THIS made no sense whatsoever!

To you maybe? I believe it was perfectly clear.

You only had 3 genuine points to make, but in order to add a 4th one against my basic transistor amplifier circuit for JUST Red-Y and Blue-Y signals (I advocated against attenuating the native Luma from the VERY beginning and you NEVER ONCE saw ANY of my schematics indicate otherwise!

OK, and I believe I was commenting on the series 15 R in this diagram: Image

Which as I said marginally attenuates Pb and Pr, and serves no apparent purpose whatsoever. That isn't your diagram? Does any of this matter?

you threw in Pasky's desire to add about 15 Ohms of resistance to the native Luma output, yet his desire to do so, once again, has NOTHING to do with a competent, Red-Y/Blue-Y amplifier circuit!

What? What you just quoted was me talking about the 15 R on Pb and Pr, not Y.

=====

So anyways thank you for such a constructive and comprehensive wall of a reply. If it makes you feel any better I do pretty much feel as though I'd been trolled into posting.

edit: just noticed this:

Point ?? There's nothing magical about 75 Ohms where it somehow always has to be used in series in the output stage or as the "proper" pull down resistance or whatever else... The only place where that's true is on the input module of the signal receiving device, the TV in this case; when we say that the input impedance of your TV's Composite video jack is 75 ohms, what that translates to is that there is a solid 75 Ohm resistor connected on the female jack from + to ground, right there! So, as soon as you connect a cable, whatever cable, the TV's input module immediately grounds it with a 75 Ohm resistor! That's where the standard of 75 Ohms really comes into play!!

dude!!! that's only part of it!!! You don't seem to realize the reason for it or the implications.

http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/AND8261-D.PDF -- read this thoroughly

hints and further reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impedance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_divider -- impedances divide too
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%A9venin%27s_theorem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Output_impedance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_impedance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impedance_matching
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_line
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characteristic_impedance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_reflection

Basically if you want minimal signal reflection (ghosting) et al, the coax should have 75 ohm characteristic impedance, and the signal source MUST be a 2 Vpp (in the case of Y signal) Thevenin voltage source with 75 ohm output impedance (resistance), so that the impedances divide and deliver 1 Vpp (in the case of Y) into the display's 75 ohm load.

That's what all the 75 ohm fuss is about--telecom theory.

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NightWolve
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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by NightWolve » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:55 pm

kyuusaku wrote:Uh no? It's constructive criticism--something you don't appear to take too well.
I take "constructive criticism" just fine, but not when it comes with the extra bonus of amazingly superior-than-thou arrogance, egomania, elitism, pompousness, etc. Not to mention the fact that most of your bullshit didn't even check out when scrutinized. Maybe, I dunno, try being respectful, possibly a difficult and/or foreign concept to you, and you won't invoke nasty responses ?? Unless of course that's what you wanted in the first place. If you're gonna throw stones, get your damn facts straight and at least try to pay attention to the flow of the thread and multiple people posting in it which you failed to do!

Anyway, your point is hypocritical. This mountainous response of yours, complete with examples of straw men, digging in, shifts of debate, etc. shows you don't appear to take too well to counter-criticism... You don't intimidate me, you sorry prick!
kyuusaku wrote:It's not a remedy.
Oh no ? Well shit dude, it was YOU that indicated there was a "simple remedy" with a single resistor. I gotta throw back your old posts to remind you of your own bullshit and apparent schizophrenic responses ??
kyuusaku wrote:Wiring component's Y in parallel with S-video's Y does mean however that you can't leave S-video and component connected at the same time because there will be dual-loads. A simple remedy with a single resistor...
It's a simple remedy, now it's not a remedy ?? Which is it ? Make up your mind! YOU called it a remedy, then apparently retract the notion that it is after seeing me quote it...

So was that just your arrogant way of retracting something you said or you forgot that you said it ? I can't decide for sure one way or another... One thing is for certain, you're not as smart as you think that you are and you need to step off that high horse!
kyuusaku wrote:You can put another series source termination resistor on Y (driving another transmission line) and it will then be driving two 150 ohm loads (= 75 ohms). Whether the output (amplifier, whatever we're talking about at this point, I don't even remember) can drive a 75 ohm load or not I don't know. The safest bet is always drive a single 150 ohm load, which is the standard arrangement for consumer devices.
kthxbye.
kyuusaku wrote:
NightWolve wrote:That's what this thread is all about or should be, to come up with the best Red-Y/Blue-Y amplifier circuit. Did we really need you to reiterate that ??
If that's what you believe, why grace the thread with 10,000 words of prose? It reads more like a political campaign now than a technical discussion to me. And you should speak for yourself, not "we". It needed "reiterating" or I wouldn't have; nobody else was talking about transmission lines. Now I'm not questioning your English comprehension, but for catching the difference your responses are confusingly off point to me.,.
You essentially attack me for being verbose, after following it up with your own mountainous post ? And no, the obvious didn't need reiterating by the likes of you. If you don't feel my contributions to the thread were of value, that's not my problem, it's yours!
kyuusaku wrote:Put up what? I've already explained as much as I could with the information I have. I do believe you're the only one offended.
Your own circuit, moron, instead of, you know, just throwing erroneous stones at others'!
kyuusaku wrote:Because I don't mod consoles and don't care to encourage modding? Because circuit analysis is time consuming and I have more satisfying things to do? If you don't feel my contributions to the thread were of value, that's not my problem, it's yours.
Actually, it's you that had a problem with me, not the other way around. Stop projecting! I would've had NOTHING to say to you were it not for the failed/erroneous criticisms you lobbed in my direction and the arrogance in which you did so!
kyuusaku wrote:
NightWolve wrote:Nobody, to my knowledge, has yet to claim that they came up with the perfect amp...
The op amps may not be perfect but surely they're close enough for this application.
Straw man, which doesn't surprise me! I'm clearly talking about an amp circuit and you straw man it into a claim about op amps. I understand that an "op amp" is superior to a transistor for amplifying. Fine. So quote me where I somehow stated otherwise, that they're not to be used for this application! Back it up or STFU, troll! I do happen to want the best transistor amp circuit, for various reasons (ease, buying everything needed at Radioshack, etc.), and yeah, I don't want people totally abandoning the idea of designing the best transistor-based circuit to match what's on the SNES motherboard for the Luma/Y. That's just what I'm gonna do and build any guides of mine around. I also know that those RGB-to-YPbPr chips are superior, but I still am not gonna play around with them, and build guides around 'em for others, etc.

Here's the original fuller quote:
NightWolve wrote:Nobody, to my knowledge, has yet to claim that they came up with the perfect amp... People are giving it a shot. I'm sorry that they're not trained engineers for you, but tough noogies!
Notice how the bigot quoted me out of context to help set up that straw man that was I talking about the "op amp" component.
kyuusaku wrote:Wait, what? You're not directly responding to me anymore? That's nice...
Ah, shaddup!
kyuusaku wrote:Me asking? Asking whom? I understand what a base resistor "is about". Or if you're talking about the diode I can postulate how the circuit will behave...
You knew it was my circuit, I entered the thread, introduced myself, stated that it was my circuit, and seeing that, you reiterated your criticisms from the previous page to make sure that I would see what you had to say about it. You could've asked me for my thought process as to why I said what I said, but instead chose to be an arrogant, pompous egomaniac. That was the point. I was right there in the thread now, you could've asked respectfully, but instead just compiled a failed/erroneous list of "Why it doesn't make any sense:"

You know, I wondered if I made the right call in trashing you and taking a negative turn in a thread that otherwise should've been totally positive. But now I feel vindicated in that decision. I knew that there was an enormously arrogant a$$hole operating behind that account and I called it right! You disgust me, frankly!
kyuusaku wrote:My bad. I felt compelled to call out bad design without regard to how it might affect the selfless good samaritan author's wittle feewings.
It's like this lunatic's in another world. All 4 of your criticisms were a failure, only one was of slight merit in that the 470uF cap doesn't have to be so big, but that still doesn't make it outright wrong or "senseless" since RCA engineers used it for a DVD output module. And yet, with all that, he's still dug in acting like he didn't get checkmated every which way Sunday! Listen troll, you failed, do you understand ?? Have some humility for once!
kyuusaku wrote:Really? I see an ego and arrogance too, funny how that is.
Oh, but I sure as hell could never match yours, buddy, not on my best day!!
kyuusaku wrote:Oh gee, that changes everything! Appealing to authority are we? How about instead of worrying about defending honor you think critically about the critiques as I have explained them?
I already took apart your 4 criticisms, do I really have to do that again, point for point ??
kyuusaku wrote:*Mindblown* So that's the purpose?
I'll trust the other engineer, you know, the one that doesn't have a superior-than-thou ego complex. I rather have that resistor there and not need it, than need it and not have it. Doesn't hurt a damn thing. Only slight attenuation visually which equals a slightly smaller final output resistor.
kyuusaku wrote:Honestly the thought never occurred to me because uhh that won't happen. .... The breakdown happens around 60V and seeing how the potential will only ever be less than 5V, your concern is akin to that of spontaneous combustion, Chief.
Yess, that's right, because every 2n3904 transistor that you pull out of your newly bought package is ALWAYS made perfectly from the factory and there's NO WAY any one that I pull out and solder on could have some slight defect that isn't initially noticed but manifests itself down the road during use... That won't happen!!! Trust the troll! So yeah, no reason to throw in an extra safe guard when it comes to modding hardware that is no longer manufactured... Well, thanks for the advice, jerk! But I'll do it with the resistor if you don't mind! ZERO to lose.
kyuusaku wrote:Hilarious huh?
Yesssss. Hilarious. Glad we agree.
kyuusaku wrote:No YOU, no YOU!! wahhhhh
Ah, shaddup!
kyuusaku wrote:Do you know why? Because it's close enough to 75 ohms source termination and made from two preferred values AND the ~39 ohm output impedance delivers the desired amplitude at the TV's load. Does that mean it's the best or even right way to do things? Uh no.
...
Not at all. It doesn't make sense because it wasn't chosen for the transfer curve it gives, it wasn't chosen for impedance matching qualities, it isn't to set some precision attenuation factor, you just chose a number, and number that isn't a preferred value. It's also a really low value to use with such a significant DC offset.
Do you know why you look like a lunatic that's dug in still clinging, trying to pretend that his failed point had merit ? What a waste of time to engage with you though, but arrogance like yours must be checkmated, I feel it a duty of mine for the good of the Internet!

1) I examined one of my spare SNES motherboards again. The total pulldown resistance from the transistor emitter output for Luma/Y is 79 Ohms on the mark with my VC99 DMM which is known for good resistance measuring. So yes, two resistors in series, off to ground. The total resistance is 79 Ohms.
2) I chose a solid 80 Ohm resistor as that's what came in my 500 Resistor pack from RadioShack. I'm not a moron like you, that is, I'm not gonna tell people in Mod Guides to solder two 39 Ohm resistors together just to match this "preferred value" notion by ONE F--KING OHM!!!!!!!!!!!
3) After it was exposed to you that SNES engineers used 78 (and now 79) Ohms, you should've STFU right then and there, and conceded your failed/selective points, but instead you arrogantly pressed on, crying about this "preferred value" notion. My actual resistor IS a preferred value by labeling, moron! It's unlikely that it can be anything else! F--KING MORON!!!!!!! So here's the link that you pasted:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preferred_value#E_series

E12 ( 10%): 10 12 15 18 22 27 33 39 47 56 68 82

You see, troll, the actual stated value is 82 Ohms, a "preferred value" that you're so stuck-on-stupid about. My circuit guide shows 80 Ohms because I used my DMM and reported the ACTUAL resistance in-circuit, you know, REALITY. Resistors are usually lower than their stated values. Now since I never finished that guide, I didn't get a chance to add footnotes and mention that you'd be grabbing a 82 Ohm resistor from your 500 pack, and should measure it, find one that comes out about to 80 Ohm like mine, so that you get about the same results as I get. Honest enough of a thought-process.

So here's the standard 500 resistor pack from RadioShack:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index ... Id=2994585

And part of the product description:
5 pcs: 2R2, 15R, 22R, 33R, 39R, 47R, 51R, 68R, 82R, 180R, 270R, 390R, 510R, 680R, 820R

So no 75 Ohm resistor in between, they skip from 68 on to 82, so that 82 one is what you're gonna grab. I don't see 75 Ohm resistors sold at that store or elsewhere for whatever reason.

Conclusion: You FAILED, troll! Have some humility! Check. Mate. The rest of your nonsensical/selective points are WORTHLESS! If SNES engineers used 79 Ohms for total pull down resistance, I'm up by one with 80 Ohms, so you crying like a lunatic about "preferred values," wasting current, too low of a value, are things you can take up with SNES engineers. Or maybe, stop trying to act like you know better than them, moreover, stop trying to demand gaming fanboys without formal electrical engineering skills somehow do better than what actual SNES engineers did! You don't have credibility to me anyway, so I'm gonna trust SNES engineers and my other EE friend over the likes of a hopelessly arrogant, egomaniacal troll! Without question, your arrogance to me is breathtaking!

How sad is it though with you just making a declaration that, "Hey, I see 80 Ohms there, makes no sense!" when it was just a labeled 82 Ohm resistor all along, and that you could've simply respectfully asked/probed instead of introducing yourself to me as an arrogant, uppity dick ??
kyuusaku wrote:You think I've never seen a 470 uF AC coupling capacitor before? Large coupling capacitors have their uses when they're necessary.
You stated the use of 470 uF was too big for Red-Y/Blue-Y/Luma and in general was something that just didn't any make sense. Yet professional RCA engineers DID use it for ALL signals! It's that simple! It wasn't as outright wrong as you claimed it to be! Take it up with RCA, jerk! Tired of your bullshit!
kyuusaku wrote:It appears you've misconstrued something I said. I'm sure there is a 75 R in there somewhere, BTW--most likely in series before the C.
I didn't misconstrue jack shit! You've been telling people, no sending them off on wild goose chases, that somehow the final output resistor in series, when it comes to an output module, should be 75 Ohms! Yet, not a SINGLE circuit on that SNES motherboard reflects that notion. Your shit doesn't check out, like I've been saying!

Case in point, I knew your arrogance would get the better of you once again, so I measured EVERY damn resistor on that whole RCA module! To recap, we're talking about this:
Image
Your arrogant ass claims there's gotta be a 75 Ohm resistor on there somewhere. You sure about that, boy genius ?? You sure ?? Cause out of disgust and betting that you'd be wrong ONCE AGAIN, I took my DMM and measured EVERY LAST RESISTOR on that module! That's right, every last one! Another bit of wasted time on you that I'll never get back! And guess what ?? You know the answer, YOU FAILED ONCE AGAIN!

There were: 15, 100, 220, 10k, etc. BUT NOT A SINGLE 75 Ohm resistor!!! Check. Mate.
kyuusaku wrote:Which as I said marginally attenuates Pb and Pr, and serves no apparent purpose whatsoever.
What kind of an arrogant, ignorant lunatic are you ?? "No apparent purpose whatsoever?"

The Red-Y off the transistor is TOO HOT moron!! You clearly are lacking in hands on experience to be making these types of definitive and thus arrogant statements! Do you understand how the process works ? You first set your TV to its defaults: color 32, tint: 32, contrast: max, brightness: 32, etc. After setting up the circuit and plugging it in, you play around with the output resistance. If you connect the emitter of the transistor directly to the TV, the color level is going to be TOO HOT! 15 Ohms of resistance HAPPENED to be good enough in my case to bring the color level down and stop the excess color saturation/bleeding (whatever you call it when the color level is turned up too high!) YOU F--KING MORON!

Listening and arguing with your sorry, arrogant, ignorant ass is what serves no purpose, damn troll!!!
kyuusaku wrote:
NightWolve wrote:you threw in Pasky's desire to add about 15 Ohms of resistance to the native Luma output, yet his desire to do so, once again, has NOTHING to do with a competent, Red-Y/Blue-Y amplifier circuit!
What? What you just quoted was me talking about the 15 R on Pb and Pr, not Y.
1) viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8979&start=60#p110241
Pasky wants to add 15 Ohms to the Luma/Y. We tell him it's perfect, you probably shouldn't.

2) viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8979&start=60#p110269
You stick your face in there, and respond with this:
kyuusaku wrote:Or maybe people are creating broken "amps" due to minimal understanding of video signals, termination or transistor amplifier topologies.
His desire to attenuate the Luma/Y had nothing to do with broken "amps" or whatever else. No connection whatsoever. Even if you had a perfect Red-Y/Blue-Y amp, he'd still be complaining of excessive white crush, etc.

3) viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8979&start=60#p110274
kyuusaku wrote:What's really wrong is how Pb and Pr are handled, when you connect them directly a compliant signal is NOT what's delivered to your TV over the transmission line.
then you say:
kyuusaku wrote:As for the Pb/Pr amp above, here's why it doesn't make any sense.
4) 15 ohms R at the output serves no purpose but to marginally attenuate an already "compliant" 80 IRE peak-to-peak signal. A proper series 75 ohm termination would attenuate the level to 40 IRE which would really break things.
How the f--k did the Red-Y/Blue-Y signals which are wired/prepped to be fed back into a custom video chip correctly go from NOT being compliant to "already compliant" in the same damn post, you schizophrenic, sloppy moron ?? That only makes sense to me if you were referring to Luma/Y, Pasky's messing with it, and his coincidental choice in also using 15 Ohms!

Anyway, I already answered the choice in 15 Ohms after amplification. 39 Ohms, like the native Luma/Y is too much! 15 Ohms was good enough for the Red-Y on my particular 32" CRT Television set. No resistor and you get excess color saturation/bleeding at the factory default settings because the signal is too strong, as I said.

Really, look at what this moron is saying, the implication: you'd have to raise the power on the transistor so that the final series resistor can be 75 Ohms!

Take the native Luma/Y circuit, at 5 Volts, you need about 39 Ohms of output resistance to get the picture just about proper on a TV's default settings. That's what SNES engineers did, their tweaking found 39 Ohms was good enough for most TV sets connected with their S-Video cable.

So, what would you have to do to swap 39 for 75 ?? Raise the power on the transistor so that the amplified signal gets stronger (or add a 2nd transistor if that works, double amplification, not that it'll work!) and you therefore need more attenuation before sending it off to the TV. Why the f--k should I have to do that ?? The f--king guy thinks he's slick, won't admit that he's wrong on anything!!
Yeah, sorry, but dropping a bunch of links, trying to flood me with your excessive sense of brilliance doesn't change a damn thing when the SNES engineers didn't do what you claim was the "right way," when RCA engineers didn't do it and when I see other professional circuits out there NOT doing what you claim is the right way! Your insistence on a 75 Ohm resistor in series for the output just simply means I'd need a stronger source to attenuate and all I can see that would be needed to accomplish that is increasing the power to the transistor and hope the thing will amplify the source signal even more... Why the f--k is that gonna change anything ?? More power on the left, higher resistance value on the right. The way that DVD module worked, they amplified it just right where no output resistor was needed/used.

P.S.

Good job killing the thread! I see months later, nobody cared to participate further and I know who I blame!
Last edited by NightWolve on Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:40 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by blargg » Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:49 pm

I just happened to read the second half of this thread (haven't read any of it before) and it's pretty sad. It reminds me of the people trying to make a perfect NES palette without realizing that they are each shooting at a different target. People would post that they've finally figured it out, but it would never be just right.

In this thread, I'm pretty sure that the circuits used are defective in many ways. Some of them have to do with being out of spec, and others have to do with depending on the particulars of their systems and components (every component of some part number differs, e.g. hFE of a transistor, and it's easy to accidentally depend on a particular component's value of this varying parameter).

It's especially sad because some people more knowledgable have given hints about things that are unnecessary or counter-productive, but these haven't been followed. Pretty quickly it became clear that I was watching a miniature version of pre-scientific human psychology, where unfounded beliefs are constantly formed. It's similar to superstitions, and comical when it's not so damaging to people's goals. A good dose of the scientific method is needed here to weed out all the false beliefs people have formed in this thread.

I have a specific question for the person who measured all the component values to map out the SNES video output circuitry (which BTW is a very good step to become more grounded in realiy). Did you desolder the components before measuring, or just measure them as soldered in the circuit?

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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by TmEE » Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:58 am

I briefly read some of the stuff above...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preferred_number#E_series

...I'll leave that here.

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Re: YPbPr ouput mod for SNES consoles

Post by NightWolve » Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:03 pm

TmEE wrote:I briefly read some of the stuff above...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preferred_number#E_series
...I'll leave that here.
Are you seeing a problem with my answer ? I'll do a condensed version.

A) Here's what the heckling heckler kept heckling me about, the concept of "preferred values:"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preferred_value#E_series
E12 ( 10%): 10 12 15 18 22 27 33 39 47 56 68 82

B) Now here's a standard 500 resistor pack I bought from RadioShack and part of the description:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index ... Id=2994585
5 pcs: 2R2, 15R, 22R, 33R, 39R, 47R, 51R, 68R, 82R, 180R, 270R, 390R, 510R, 680R, 820R

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm... So to recap:

1) The heckling heckler sees 80 Ohms on my schematic, goes apeshit cause he can't process how it's not 82 or 68 or 75 or 100, that is, it's not exactly what the labeling of the resistor states. A simple misunderstanding that could've easily been corrected, but the guy is a rottweiler, grabs on to a technicality type issue and won't let go!!! Deliberately just looking for ANYTHING he could find wrong to continue on with his bullshit!
2) It appears that this "preferred value" standard guides the industry on the production of resistor packs. So how the f--k could an Average Joe like me have gotten a hold of resistors that do NOT follow this standard anyway ?? Just a common sense question for the heckler.
3) I tell the heckling heckler that after doing a full circuit dump of all video amp circuits, SNES engineers achieved a 78-79 Ohm pull down resistance for the same situation when it comes to the Luma/Y amp and in doing the test again, it's fully 79 Ohms. So, 80 - 79, a difference of ONE F--KING OHM! But the heckler presses on ahead: "NOOOOOOO. OH. MY. GAWWD. You're still doing it wrong!!! It's not a 'preferred value' this 80 of yours!!!!!! WRONG I SAY!!! WRONG!!!!!"
4) In a schizophrenic fashion, in one post, he can be found telling you that 80 Ohms wastes loads of current, is too small, etc. but then in another post, he can be found telling you that you should've gone lower to 75 Ohms to conform to the 75 Ohm standard, etc. Make up your damn mind, heckler! :roll:
5) Again, if ROHM/SNES engineers, who designed the whole system, used 79 Ohms as the pull down resistance for the Luma/Y amp, and I used an 80 Ohm resistor for the Red/Blue-Y amp, I'm IN THE F--KING BALLPARK FOR F--K'S SAKE!
6) Yes, I didn't get to add footnotes in that Guide, but then I wasn't the one that released it here. I made it privately very quickly for ConHuevos, the guy that posted it here. It was just to show him what I did and got working. Clearly, cause of this heckling heckler's madness, I have to point out in detail that you're grabbing a 82 Ohm resistor from your pack, and that it typically will read 80 Ohms when properly tested under a good DMM.
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