SNES Image Converter (also for 2bpp)

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iNCEPTIONAL

SNES Image Converter (also for 2bpp)

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

Is there a program that will let me convert images into SNES compatible format (breaking it down into both the visible palettes and tiles) and, in my case, specifically one that lets me convert them into 2bpp for Mode 0 use?

For a 2bbp background, that would mean I'd want to see the 8 2bpp palettes that I have to work with per layer, just so I know it's adhering to that Mode 0 limit and so I can actually also make full use of all 8 palettes available for the layer.

Ideally, but not essential for now, once it's done the conversion, it would also let me edit palette colours manually to check the effect that has on the image (useful for testing how palette swap effects might look). And even more awesome, but really not essential for now, I'd be able to edit individual pixels in the image from within the program for small touch-ups, as well as copy and paste tiles in case you've either went over the tile limit or just want to reduce the tile count further.

If this does not exist, does someone want to work on making this for the community, and I will give any necessary input/feedback I can in order to make it nice and user-friendly?
Last edited by iNCEPTIONAL on Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:28 am, edited 4 times in total.
creaothceann
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Re: SNES Image Converter (also for 2bpp)

Post by creaothceann »

Search/ask on RHDN?
My current setup:
Super Famicom ("2/1/3" SNS-CPU-GPM-02) → SCART → OSSC → StarTech USB3HDCAP → AmaRecTV 3.10
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: SNES Image Converter (also for 2bpp)

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

creaothceann wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 2:34 am Search/ask on RHDN?
Had a look and found Image to SNES Converter, but it doesn't seem to do what I want (seems to only allow up to 8 palettes of 16 colours each, which is not the same as Mode 0's 24 palettes of 4 colours each, and I'm not actually sure how to use it properly (it's not a very intuitive interface to read for me as more of an artist type).

Do you have any other recommendations that you're actually aware of and that might properly suit my needs? If you do know of any then simply pointing me directly to them would great.

I'll sign myself up to the romhacking community and ask around in there too. :)
Oziphantom
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Re: SNES Image Converter (also for 2bpp)

Post by Oziphantom »

https://github.com/Optiroc/SuperFamiconv will do 2bpp as well as 4bpp and 8bpp.
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: SNES Image Converter (also for 2bpp)

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

Oziphantom wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 7:11 am https://github.com/Optiroc/SuperFamiconv will do 2bpp as well as 4bpp and 8bpp.
OK, I'll have a look at that and see if it suits the task at hand. . . .

Cheers.

Edit: Nope, this looks code-based or something, and I'm not a coder, or at least not enough to start editing graphics this way. Put it like this, I can't even see the .exe to run the app, which should tell you where I'm at.

I simply want a program I can actually open and use like a basic but typical art editor, with a UI that an artist can use rather than a programmer, and that also fits the criteria I mentioned in my original post. If this app does indeed do that and I'm missing something obvious, please let me one. I mean, I took a guess and used Notepad just to read the README because it wasn't even in a format that immediately opened on my PC (and the fact I had to guess that hopefully sums up my problem here). So this doesn't at all seem like it's at the layman-user level I'm looking for.

If such an app doesn't exist then I'm happy to talk to someone about what could go into such a thing.
Last edited by iNCEPTIONAL on Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
calima
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Re: SNES Image Converter (also for 2bpp)

Post by calima »

Superfamiconv is a command-line tool. What you're asking for doesn't exist (except possibly in some commercial SNES SDK from back in the day, but those are hardly available nowadays).
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: SNES Image Converter (also for 2bpp)

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

calima wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:41 am Superfamiconv is a command-line tool. What you're asking for doesn't exist (except possibly in some commercial SNES SDK from back in the day, but those are hardly available nowadays).
Well, if it doesn't exist then I'm putting it out there that I'd like to start talking to someone about making that happen. . . . :)

It's strange because I used to work for Rare, mainly on a conversion of Donkey Kong Country from SNES to the GBC, funnily enough, and I'm sure I recall them having a pretty easy tool that I used to create the art and mess around with the palettes and tiles and so on. Boy would it be great to have something just like that available now.
Oziphantom
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Re: SNES Image Converter (also for 2bpp)

Post by Oziphantom »

but using a dedicated art tool will be much better than any custom tool. Then you run it through the converter.
So Deluxe Paint is the OG. Of which Pro Motion NG is the evolved DP. It will give you colour limits, palletes, fine control over every pixel, has a tile engine etc you can even set the same shortcuts as DP. It has raw GBA file output as well so that is mostly what it was designed for.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/6711 ... Motion_NG/ that plus the conversion tool will work just fine.
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: SNES Image Converter (also for 2bpp)

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

Oziphantom wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:16 am but using a dedicated art tool will be much better than any custom tool. Then you run it through the converter.
So Deluxe Paint is the OG. Of which Pro Motion NG is the evolved DP. It will give you colour limits, palletes, fine control over every pixel, has a tile engine etc you can even set the same shortcuts as DP. It has raw GBA file output as well so that is mostly what it was designed for.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/6711 ... Motion_NG/ that plus the conversion tool will work just fine.
This looks potentially cool. How useful is the free version?

Edit: Man, I just downloaded it and it looks complicated (eve more complicated than Photoshop at a glance). :shock:

All I really need is a program specifically for SNES graphics, so it's really quick to learn and use specifically for SNES graphics. This looks to have a billion options I'll never use and is quite hard to get a grasp of everything it's presenting based on first impressions (Game Maker 8.1 is far simpler looking for example, and that's an entire game creation tool, including having the ability to create art directly inside it), so it's immediately off-putting to someone like me. And then we still have to go to another program to do the conversion to SNES format anyway, right?

I guess I'm not properly conveying what I'm looking for here, because it should be extremely simple ultimately in design and interface, yet perfect for specifically doing everything in relation to SNES art creation. I think that's something that we could all really benefit from (again, unless it already exists and I'm just not found it yet).

The Image to SNES Converter was actually close, but it was lacking obvious and imo essential features for any SNES tool built around the art asset stuff, like actually being able to work with art that's compatible with Mode 0 on SNES for example (literally one of it's documented modes). Maybe I can contact that guy and see if he'd be willing to work on updating it with the extra functionality. But I just got told off in the romhacking forums for asking if someone wanted to work on such an app. Apparently that's breaking the rules. I am like WTF!
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Re: SNES Image Converter (also for 2bpp)

Post by Nikku4211 »

I have an ASD, so empathy is not natural for me. If I hurt you, I apologise.
creaothceann
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Re: SNES Image Converter (also for 2bpp)

Post by creaothceann »

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:19 am Man, I just downloaded it and it looks complicated (eve more complicated than Photoshop at a glance)
Someone in the comments of Pro Motion NG's Steam page mentioned Aseprite and Pyxel Edit.

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:19 am All I really need is a program specifically for SNES graphics, so it's really quick to learn and use specifically for SNES graphics
So, something like a level editor for a game. There are several of them in the ROM hacking community (for SMW, Zelda, Metroid, ...) and they're all game-specific.

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:19 am This looks to have a billion options I'll never use
Then just don't use them. I never needed to use AutoCAD's 3D functionality at work, so I just used the 2D mode. Problem solved.

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:19 am and is quite hard to get a grasp of everything it's presenting based on first impressions [...] so it's immediately off-putting to someone like me
Doesn't matter. You'll spend at least weeks/months with it. Most professional users of a program will put in the time getting to know his/her tools, because it's what speeds up their work and gives them an edge.

And frankly speaking: for a project a programmer is more important than an artist (because even without art you can still have a game), so you do depend on them, not the other way around.

This is a common problem... Programming is hard, so ROM hackers are always looking for programmers. Learning Japanese is hard, so anime / manga fans / ROM hackers are always looking for translators. Etc.

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:19 am And then we still have to go to another program to do the conversion to SNES format anyway, right? [...] I guess I'm not properly conveying what I'm looking for here, because it should be extremely simple ultimately in design and interface, yet perfect for specifically doing everything in relation to SNES art creation.
Right, the egg-laying wool-milk sow... I'm not sure how to properly convey that building programs that do one thing and do it well is more appropiate here. It's how SNES games were developed back in the day, too.

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:19 am The Image to SNES Converter was actually close, but it was lacking obvious and imo essential features for any SNES tool built around the art asset stuff, like actually being able to work with art that's compatible with Mode 0 on SNES for example (literally one of it's documented modes).
The official SNES documentation where this was documented was (legally) only available to developers anyway. Developers who sometimes even created their own development kits. Writing a converter tool to get SNES-compatible image data was the least of their worries.

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:19 am Maybe I can contact that guy and see if he'd be willing to work on updating it with the extra functionality.
Be prepared to pay for that work, if he even wants to do it.

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:19 am But I just got told off in the romhacking forums for asking if someone wanted to work on such an app. Apparently that's breaking the rules. I am like WTF!
Wait, you posted in a forum before reading the rules? "It is never a good idea to request someone else do work for you. That includes asking for someone to make a utility, do a translation, write a document etc."
Last edited by creaothceann on Wed Feb 23, 2022 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My current setup:
Super Famicom ("2/1/3" SNS-CPU-GPM-02) → SCART → OSSC → StarTech USB3HDCAP → AmaRecTV 3.10
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: SNES Image Converter (also for 2bpp)

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

creaothceann wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 1:12 pm
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:19 am Man, I just downloaded it and it looks complicated (eve more complicated than Photoshop at a glance)
Someone in the comments of Pro Motion NG's Steam page mentioned Aseprite and Pyxel Edit.

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:19 am All I really need is a program specifically for SNES graphics, so it's really quick to learn and use specifically for SNES graphics
So, something like a level editor for a game. There are several of them in the ROM hacking community (for SMW, Zelda, Metroid, ...) and they're all game-specific.

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:19 am This looks to have a billion options I'll never use
Then just don't use them. I never needed to use AutoCAD's 3D functionality at work, so I just used the 2D mode. Problem solved.

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:19 am and is quite hard to get a grasp of everything it's presenting based on first impressions [...] so it's immediately off-putting to someone like me
Doesn't matter. You'll spend at least weeks/months with it. Most professional users of a program will put in the time getting to know his/her tools, because it's what speeds up their work and gives them an edge.

And frankly speaking: for a project a programmer is more important than an artist (because with a programmer you can at least have a game), so you do depend on them, not the other way around.

This is a common problem... Programming is hard, so ROM hackers are always looking for programmers. Learning Japanese is hard, so anime / manga fans / ROM hackers are always looking for translators. Etc.

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:19 am And then we still have to go to another program to do the conversion to SNES format anyway, right? [...] I guess I'm not properly conveying what I'm looking for here, because it should be extremely simple ultimately in design and interface, yet perfect for specifically doing everything in relation to SNES art creation.
Right, the egg-laying wool-milk sow... I'm not sure how to properly convey that building programs that do one thing and do it well is more appropiate here. It's how SNES games were developed back in the day, too.

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:19 am The Image to SNES Converter was actually close, but it was lacking obvious and imo essential features for any SNES tool built around the art asset stuff, like actually being able to work with art that's compatible with Mode 0 on SNES for example (literally one of it's documented modes).
The official SNES documentation where this was documented was (legally) only available to developers anyway. Developers who sometimes even created their own development kits. Writing a converter tool to get SNES-compatible image data was the least of their worries.

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:19 am Maybe I can contact that guy and see if he'd be willing to work on updating it with the extra functionality.
Be prepared to pay for that work, if he even wants to do it.

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:19 am But I just got told off in the romhacking forums for asking if someone wanted to work on such an app. Apparently that's breaking the rules. I am like WTF!
Wait, you posted in a forum before reading the rules? "It is never a good idea to request someone else do work for you. That includes asking for someone to make a utility, do a translation, write a document etc."
No one reads rules! lol :P
Oziphantom
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Re: SNES Image Converter (also for 2bpp)

Post by Oziphantom »

Pro Motion NG is Deluxe Paint complex, now where near Photoshop. However Pro Motion NG has expanded a fair amount, so it would be fair to call it Deluxe Paint 8. Aesprite is probably more complex than Pro Motion NG, and it is designed for modern systems and indie games to get the "retro" look by Photoshop users. Maybe you could find a copy of "Pro Motion" vs "Pro Motion NG". Pro Motion is closer to Deluxe Paint spec without all the fancy windows etc.

If that is too hard, try GrafX2 http://grafx2.chez.com/ it is very pure Deluxe Paint with a smidge of Brilliance. However I think it is 256 colours only. And it doesn't have a tile engine. But it just has a simple tool box on the side ala Deluxe Paint.

There is no point making a custom tool that lets you draw pixels for the SNES in a tool, you will then want lines, and curves, and layers and gradient fills and you will end up remaking Deluxe Paint again anyway.

But if you want said halfway house try https://www.romhacking.net/utilities/119/
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: SNES Image Converter (also for 2bpp)

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

Oziphantom wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:42 pm Pro Motion NG is Deluxe Paint complex, now where near Photoshop. However Pro Motion NG has expanded a fair amount, so it would be fair to call it Deluxe Paint 8. Aesprite is probably more complex than Pro Motion NG, and it is designed for modern systems and indie games to get the "retro" look by Photoshop users. Maybe you could find a copy of "Pro Motion" vs "Pro Motion NG". Pro Motion is closer to Deluxe Paint spec without all the fancy windows etc.

If that is too hard, try GrafX2 http://grafx2.chez.com/ it is very pure Deluxe Paint with a smidge of Brilliance. However I think it is 256 colours only. And it doesn't have a tile engine. But it just has a simple tool box on the side ala Deluxe Paint.

There is no point making a custom tool that lets you draw pixels for the SNES in a tool, you will then want lines, and curves, and layers and gradient fills and you will end up remaking Deluxe Paint again anyway.

But if you want said halfway house try https://www.romhacking.net/utilities/119/
The problem with most options is they don't allow me to set up palettes specifically for SNES (such as 8x4 color palettes if I'm working in mode 0) using only SNES compatible colours, and they don't allow me to check that I dont have more than the allowed colours per tile, or check how many unique and repeated tiles I have, or copy and paste tiles, and those kinds of things.

I've been directed to a few other more SNES specific programs by other people, which are okay, but none of them appear to allow proper setup to work within the limitations of Mode 0 either, which really is a bad oversight for programs supposed to be specifically designed to allow people to edit art within SNES' specs and restrictions. And they dont have great UI's on very intuitive usability most of the time.

There really should be a simple tool that has a main palette of the 32,768 SNES compatible colours arranged in a way that's easy to visually read all main colours you would expect to see (red, orange, yellow, green, blue, purple, pink, brown, black, white, grey, etc), and simple to select from. And there should be the option to pick the background mode you are working in, including Mode 0, and the set of palettes should then appear specific to that mode (8x4 for Mode 0), which you populate with the colours you want, selecting from the main palette. And there should be at least basic options like checking tile counts (accounting for flipped tiles too), copying and replacing tiles, drawing at least per pixel using a simple pencil tool, and that kind of thing. And it all needs to look clear and simple and be intuitive to use for the people that will generally be making the art (artist types). And it needs to be created for the dedicated purpose of editing SNES art assets, so there's no fluff there that isn't necessary for SNES specific development.

At least that's what I'd love to see.

I'll have a look at that one you linked. Cheers.
Oziphantom
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Re: SNES Image Converter (also for 2bpp)

Post by Oziphantom »

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:10 am The problem with most options is they don't allow me to set up palettes specifically for SNES (such as 8x4 color palettes if I'm working in mode 0) using only SNES compatible colours, and they don't allow me to check that I dont have more than the allowed colours per tile, or check how many unique and repeated tiles I have, or copy and paste tiles, and those kinds of things.
Pro Motion NG literally does this, its the whole reason it exists, its the professional tool from the GBA era ( which has the same colour limits as the SNES ) for doing exactly that.
So you can tell it to limit to 15bit colour, and you can tell it to limit to 16 colours per 8x8 or 16x16 tile, and you can tell it that the pallete has to be in each group of 16, and it has a tile mode that understand h and V flipping when it exports it for you.

https://www.cosmigo.com/promotion/docs/ ... raints.htm
https://www.cosmigo.com/promotion/docs/ ... itsDlg.htm
https://www.cosmigo.com/promotion/docs/ ... Primer.htm
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