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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:32 am 
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Well to tell the truth, i plan on trying my luck making a few asset packs and try to sell them. If they net me a little bit of income, i can take some hours off and spend more time on the nesdev related things i do want to do. If it doesn't pan out, well, that's time i ought to have spent om my involvements instead, haha - but in return i get some more experience which could be handy for said projects.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:40 am 
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GradualGames wrote:
Contrasting the nes scene with the atari scene, I'm willing to bet there will be far fewer games made with nesmaker relative to this scene than batari basic games relative to the atari scene, simply because of the asset complexity involved with making an nes game. Even with the coding done for you, you still have a TON of work to do. I'd almost say coding is a fairly small portion of an overall game's project lifecycle.


That's true. On Atari, you don't really need music, and can release a game with terrible programmer art and nobody complains about the graphics. To make a decent NES game, you need a lot of graphics and sound.

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Well to tell the truth, i plan on trying my luck making a few asset packs and try to sell them. If they net me a little bit of income, i can take some hours off and spend more time on the nesdev related things i do want to do. If it doesn't pan out, well, that's time i ought to have spent om my involvements instead, haha - but in return i get some more experience which could be handy for said projects.


That's a great idea. If someone is willing to pay money for the game maker, I'd be surprised if they aren't willing to pay money for high quality graphics.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:52 am 
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gauauu wrote:
GradualGames wrote:
Contrasting the nes scene with the atari scene, I'm willing to bet there will be far fewer games made with nesmaker relative to this scene than batari basic games relative to the atari scene, simply because of the asset complexity involved with making an nes game. Even with the coding done for you, you still have a TON of work to do. I'd almost say coding is a fairly small portion of an overall game's project lifecycle.


That's true. On Atari, you don't really need music, and can release a game with terrible programmer art and nobody complains about the graphics. To make a decent NES game, you need a lot of graphics and sound.

I continue to feel that while the scene is orienting itself these days towards late-era nes graphics (which is awesome), that early era black box nes graphics are still a valid and charming style, just as atari is. Roth's games all have this characteristic and they're some of the best nes homebrews being made.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:25 pm 
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DRW wrote:
Level data is done by hand as well. Because unlike "Mystic Searches", my meta tiles for a screen do not have a fixed 8 x 8 or 16 x 16 pixel size. My meta tiles are stored by-object:

For example, one meta tile might be a house. It stores the width, the height, the palette index, the information whether it's treated as a wall or walkable space and then all separate tile values.

Inside the screen data, I simply put the meta tile type and its x and y position and that's it: Two bytes per object per screen and minimal writing.

A list of (x, y, thing) is exactly how Super Mario World does it, as any Lunar Magic user will know.

FrankenGraphics wrote:
Lastly, a philosophical question:
-Is it really homebrew if it wasn't bedroom coded? "Indie" seems more appropriate somehow.

One might define "homebrew" as indie plus unlicensed. "Unlicensed" means a console game not endorsed by the console maker, and in this comment, ceoyoyo defines "indie" as any studio too small for venture capital. Another view is described in inclusion criteria for BootlegGames, where KingPepe2010 defines "homebrew" as unlicensed games that are "made as a hobby and usually don't have a full-time development team behind them."


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:27 pm 
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I am a big console video game player. I prefer console games to PC games. That being said, the NES was the first console that I ever played and was my introduction to video gaming. My appeal to making a new NES game is that the console has significant importance to me. Making a game for this console seems like something that I am obligated to do, as strange as that sounds. Like as if I have a special connection to the console. The NES was part of my life and represents in a way "who I am".

Sometimes I like to think of it like this, when you make a game for a console its like you get to join the club of all of the other games on that console. Currently I'm really not part of the NES "club" so to speak because I haven't produced anything for the system. But when I do make something I get to join the ranks.... as if I now belong to something.

What's also really cool about making a new game for a console is that in my opinion, you literally get to redefine what that console is all about. Because you have made new content for a console it is as if that console is somehow different now, because now it can do something that it couldn't do before. So by making a new NES game you have the opportunity to change literally the identity of that console.

With the release of NES Maker the NES homebrew community I believe will see a lot of new comers. People of all walks of life will be trying to make something, but only few will succeed. I think the majority of people will just drag and drop something together and then flash it to the cart and then play it on their NES and this will satisfy them completely. Even if they don't make a full game or sell their game. I think the appeal of just saying "I made something" is what the majority of people will be interested in.

Only the hardcore developers will try and make something substantial. In fact, I suspect that the average kickstarter backer will get their reward (software, flasher) play around with it for a few days. Then determine that it's too hard to actually do a project and then just give up. Honestly, that's what I think.

I don't think any of the devs here making new NES homebrews need to feel threatened by the release of NES Maker. In fact as more people enter the community you might actually see an increase in sales. All of the NES homebrew prior to NES Maker will then be considered classics because they were made the old way and might be more sought after because they are more rare.

Also did you know that even if you make an NES game with no sound and atari 2600 graphics that this can still be a legitimate game? Some people think that you *must* use the consoles resources and potential to its max, but this isn't necessarily so. You can still have an NES game which looks like an atari game. There is nothing wrong with this as games are works of artistic expression.

The thing is that we will never know what is going to happen until it actually happens.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:55 am 
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I don't feel threatened by NES Maker per se. But I suspect that many clueless people might assume that my game was made with that tool just because it's also a top-down action adventure.

Just like people thought that "Haunted Halloween" is a "River City Ransom" hack.
Because, sure: The fact that it plays totally different, that's probably because of the hacker skills.
But the main character sprite has a similar graphics style and that's something that cannot be changed, so the graphics style of one character is of course a clear giveaway that it's a hack.

Or when people call by game "City Trouble" a beat'em up. It is a jump'n'run platformer with a weapon and standard "get hit by touching the opponents and flicker for a few seconds" colision checks. But since the sprite style is similar to early NES titles like "Kung Fu", it's a beat'em up, sure.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:51 am 
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DRW wrote:
I don't feel threatened by NES Maker per se. But I suspect that many clueless people might assume that my game was made with that tool just because it's also a top-down action adventure.

I predict developers will feel pressure to include set pieces that showcase engine features not in NESmaker modules.

DRW wrote:
Just like people thought that "Haunted Halloween" is a "River City Ransom" hack.
Because, sure: The fact that it plays totally different, that's probably because of the hacker skills.

Hence my question about identifying games that share code.

DRW wrote:
Or when people call by game "City Trouble" a beat'em up. It is a jump'n'run platformer with a weapon

They get confused because a handheld electroshock device behaves the same as punching. In gameplay terms, a melee weapon with range no longer than a fist is as much a "weapon" as brass knuckles. I don't classify HH85 as a beat-em-up either; it's a platformer with a melee attack. But I guess to some, a short-range melee attack (as opposed to a ranged weapon, stomping, dash attack, or avoidance) means beat-em-up.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:05 am 
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tepples wrote:
I predict developers will feel pressure to include set pieces that showcase engine features not in NESmaker modules.

Well, I have battery save, scrolling (even without artifacts since I use MMC-1 and can therefore change between hoizontal and vertical mirroring) and hopefully my game will fit into 256 KB instead of 512.

tepples wrote:
They get confused because a handheld electroshock device behaves the same as punching. In gameplay terms, a melee weapon with range no longer than a fist is as much a "weapon" as brass knuckles.

It's quite longer than the hand since the electricity that comes out of it checks for collision too.

To me, a beat'em up as opposed to a jump'n'run is a game where the opponents hit you with their own attacks. In "Kung Fu", "Double Dragon" and "Final Fight", you don't get hit by the opponents by simply walking into them.

If you run into an opponent and lose energy, without the opponent actually doing anything, and then you flicker for a while and are invincible, then this is obviously not a beat'em up.

In my game, I don't think it has anything to do with the taser. Nobody considers "Rush'n Attack" a beat'em up since the knife is like a fist.
I assume it's purely because of the similar graphics style:
Attachment:
Crossover.png
Crossover.png [ 4.16 KiB | Viewed 583 times ]

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:41 am 
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In a perfect world, that ^ mockup would've been a game.

Quote:
Well, I have battery save, scrolling (even without artifacts since I use MMC-1 and can therefore change between hoizontal and vertical mirroring) and hopefully my game will fit into 256 KB instead of 512.

Scrolling and mode of scrolling sets it aside. Smaller size won't be something users notice, but a scrolling adventure topdowner is differently featured enough.

Quote:
o me, a beat'em up as opposed to a jump'n'run is a game where the opponents hit you with their own attacks.

This is a very sensible distinction. I guess people find it close at hand to associate brawling, fighting and martial arts with beat em ups, though...

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:42 pm 
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Giant scrolling bosses might not be possible. MUAH HUAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAAAAAhhhhhhh........... :twisted:
*edit* Actually...have those ever been done with sprite 0 hit?? Just occurred to me.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:58 pm 
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GradualGames wrote:
Giant scrolling bosses [...] Actually...have those ever been done with sprite 0 hit??

1 week left, just wait and see... :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:02 pm 
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GradualGames wrote:
Giant scrolling bosses might not be possible. MUAH HUAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAAAAAhhhhhhh........... :twisted:
*edit* Actually...have those ever been done with sprite 0 hit?? Just occurred to me.

I don't know about sprite 0 hits, but there are many cases of giant bosses in rooms where floors have little to no details (i.e. just horizontal lines), so you can't tell that the floor is scrolling along with the boss.

One way to improve that technique is to use a few sprites to decorate the stationary platforms, but I don't think any games did that.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:12 pm 
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Even if the next couple of games I make are possible to do in nesmaker, my guess is they won't REALLY quite be the same. In other words, there are dozens of tiny details in how entity state machines work which would likely be very different. Like, I'm sure I could customize nesmaker to make a platformer and use the graphics I'm using for my current game and it would look KINDA like the game I'm making now, but getting it so it is tuned and FEELS just like the one I'm working on---there are so many fine grained details down at that level, I would be TRULY ASTOUNDED if this tool can visually allow enough customization to capture every detail. the "feel" of characters even in well trod genres can often be startlingly different due to these details. You guys all know what I'm talking about.

Something like an RPG though, those fine grained details would be harder to detect by an attentive player, probably. Though, the menu system might wind up different from what one has envisioned, not to mention the stats system for your party and enemies.

I guess I'm trying to say I think even if one is not doing anything particularly new engine wise, it STILL should be possible to differentiate from what's possible in nesmaker, just by virtue of selecting (i.e. coding, yourself) many dozens of details at the micro-level that this tool will likely not expose (unless you edit the code, but at that point you might as well be making your own engine anyway)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:26 pm 
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my guess is they won't REALLY quite be the same.

A friend/colleague sometimes remind me that the devil is in the details (friendly advise when i'm obsessing over them and spending too much time on them), though for a game, i'd say the soul is in the details. Subtle things you might not even consciously notice at times.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:14 pm 
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FrankenGraphics wrote:
Quote:
my guess is they won't REALLY quite be the same.

A friend/colleague sometimes remind me that the devil is in the details (friendly advise when i'm obsessing over them and spending too much time on them), though for a game, i'd say the soul is in the details. Subtle things you might not even consciously notice at times.

100% agree. When you use a maker, unless you replace absolutely all of those details somehow, you get somebody else's soul. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I think for many of us pre-nesmaker creators that's the whole point: To put our soul into something. I find it hard to say "I made this," if that isn't true.


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