Aren't you afraid that NES Maker would just bring lazy noobs

Discuss technical or other issues relating to programming the Nintendo Entertainment System, Famicom, or compatible systems.

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rainwarrior
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Re: Aren't you afraid that NES Maker would just bring lazy n

Post by rainwarrior » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:11 pm

tepples wrote:MECC's The Oregon Trail was in BASIC.
The original Oregon Trail was indeed written in BASIC, on a CDC Cyber. The source code is available. I once ported this to applesoft basic to try it out. This was a text-only game.

The popular Apple II version by MECC I'm not sure about. I wouldn't really assume it was written in BASIC, but it doesn't seem implausible either.

(BASIC was certainly used for commercially viable software over the years, though. I am not questioning that, but I don't really have any specific examples of 8-bit titles that did in hand. I know of many on Atari ST.)

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koitsu
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Re: Aren't you afraid that NES Maker would just bring lazy n

Post by koitsu » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:52 pm

There were also many Apple II games which were at least partially in BASIC. Often you'd find a BASIC "management core" combined with actual assembly/machine language binaries which were BLOAD'ed into place. One of the most famous, to me anyway, was Eamon. Another, which was also commercial and multi-platform, was Temple of Apshai.

Circling back to the NES though -- or more precisely, the Famicom -- had its own BASIC as well, which also included a keyboard peripheral. I remember finding several pages in Japanese where people were working on their own games using Famicom BASIC. There are some here. Reverse-engineering of the cartridge and its related ROM subroutines and RAM memory layout is here.

Like NES Maker, I can't judge people using this as a stepping stone. I started the same way with computing programming: in Applesoft BASIC. I understand the points people make about such tools/things "lowering the standards bar" and the social effects of such a tool, and they're fine opinions to hold. I've already stated my own.

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Re: Aren't you afraid that NES Maker would just bring lazy n

Post by tokumaru » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:01 pm

I think the MSX had a number of commercial BASIC games.

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Re: Aren't you afraid that NES Maker would just bring lazy n

Post by Oziphantom » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:30 am

If one wants to talk about top tier BASIC games, Sid Meier's Pirates!

The thing with Unity and Gamemaker and Construct 2... is if one make a "nes" level game on my PC with those tools, so something Quad Core, over 2Ghz, and a GTX anything, the layers of inefficiency are transparent. It doesn't impact the game in anyway. Although when I have a game made in them, it would be nice if those choose something better... I'm looking at you Hotline Miami and LUFTRAUSERS ( for the irony points the PC version is 30fps, the Commodore 64 version is 50fps because you know they used ASM ;) )

But on a NES, having a bunch of generic stuff pull and prodded, should be somewhat obvious or very limiting if its not. 10 seconds into a SUECK and you know its a SUECK, there is no amount of custom title screen and music that is going to hide it.

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Re: Aren't you afraid that NES Maker would just bring lazy n

Post by psycopathicteen » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:00 am

I hope it's more flexible than SMW is.

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Re: Aren't you afraid that NES Maker would just bring lazy n

Post by Oziphantom » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:54 am

Maybe it will be the NES version of "Backbone", which seems capable but is rather looked down upon..

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Re: Aren't you afraid that NES Maker would just bring lazy n

Post by gauauu » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:02 am

I've said this before, but I think it will be very similar to the introduction of batariBasic in the Atari 2600 homebrew scene. With batariBasic:

1. Atari 2600 homebrew is a lot more accessible to a lot more people.
2. There's a lot of shovelware homebrew.
3. Some amazing games have been released with bB.
4. Good games (no matter how they were made) still get noticed and appreciated.
5. Yes, people occasionally think your non-bB game was made using bB. The only thing impacted by that is your own pride.
6. The community is still thriving.

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slembcke
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Re: Aren't you afraid that NES Maker would just bring lazy n

Post by slembcke » Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:57 am

gauauu wrote:The only thing impacted by that is your own pride.
I feel like there is a quote about artists being appreciated, but not in the way they desired. In this case, it's not just that the game is fun, but also the player recognize the work that went into it. I would put that in perspective with my comments above about the recent game convention. People thought it was really neat that a NES game was made, but they have _no_ idea what went into making it happen.

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Re: Aren't you afraid that NES Maker would just bring lazy n

Post by dougeff » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:18 pm

Maybe it will be the NES version of "Backbone", which seems capable but is rather looked down upon..
What's Backbone?
on the C64 do we fear being overrun by SEUCK, or Garry's Game Maker games. No.
We put them over on the side in the own little playpen and just ignore them.
I feel like most NESmaker games are going to be easy to spot, short non-scrolling RPGs with generic or reused graphics, and will be put in a lesser category of NES homebrews. And mostly ignored. Sadly.

Hopefully, some of them will shine, and take longer than 15 minutes to complete.
nesdoug.com -- blog/tutorial on programming for the NES

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Re: Aren't you afraid that NES Maker would just bring lazy n

Post by darkhog » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:28 pm

Yeah, as a person who uses NM, I fear it will get the same fate and label as RPG Maker - there are great RPG Maker games, Skyborn and To the Moon being just two commercial examples, but people still shy away for RM games without even trying them because of many "mah first gaem evar!!!11!" projects, which is sad. And because people have little knowledge of what exactly it takes to make a NES game, it may reflect badly on the rest of community.

Yes, I want it to be not true, but with other examples from other gamedev branches and tools (RPG Maker, Game Maker, Clickteam Fusion, even Unity which is a "real" engine and of course retro tools like SUECK, STOS, AMOS and so on), I'm afraid it will make anyone who uses NES Maker look like a noob with nothing to offer, even if he/she makes a great game. Because there will be many "mah first gaem evar!!!11!" projects made with NM, that's unavoidable with how the software bills itself.

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Sumez
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Re: Aren't you afraid that NES Maker would just bring lazy n

Post by Sumez » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:19 pm

Nesmaker doesn't support scrolling?

darkhog
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Re: Aren't you afraid that NES Maker would just bring lazy n

Post by darkhog » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:24 pm

Not yet, but the devs are planning to add necessary code in future.

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OmegaMax
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Re: Aren't you afraid that NES Maker would just bring lazy n

Post by OmegaMax » Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:55 pm

darkhog wrote: Because there will be many "mah first gaem evar!!!11!" projects made with NM, that's unavoidable with how the software bills itself.
After clicking the link someone provided and I seen the games in progress being made with NESMaker I'd agree with the "mah first gaem evar!!!11!"

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Punch
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Re: Aren't you afraid that NES Maker would just bring lazy n

Post by Punch » Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:23 pm

I'm afraid that nesmaker will bring in "games are political" people.
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adam_smasher
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Re: Aren't you afraid that NES Maker would just bring lazy n

Post by adam_smasher » Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:38 pm

Games are political! It's too late! We're already here! :twisted:

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