NES PAL version, wavy edges on graphics

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poteroa
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Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:35 pm

NES PAL version, wavy edges on graphics

Post by poteroa »

Hi all!

New to the forum, and not quite sure is this the correct location for my help request. :beer:

I got a 8-bit for the first time since 90´s, broken. Front loader.

The only issues the guy said it had, was that the graphics are scrambled, and that was the 72-pin connector.

Fixed that issue, and recapped the whole unit except the rubicons, as they were all ok.

My problem is with the picture being a bit off, graphics, like text in Super Mario is not clear and sharp, but a bit wavy.

Like a letter T is a bit off and same with other graphics, they are not crisp. Like the sync vertically is a bit off.

The console works otherwise well, games start on each insert. And happens with all games.

What I have tried so far:

New composite cables, 2 TV:s and all possible settings gone through, original AC PSU and aftermarket PSU.
(composite cables were plain RCA and other meant for picture, with graphite rings, do not know the correct word for that, english is not my mother tonque).. :D

I have only seen 2 posts in internet with the same problem, but no solution.

BR Pete
Last edited by poteroa on Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
lidnariq
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Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:12 am

Re: NES PAL version, wavy edges on graphics

Post by lidnariq »

Looks like this: viewtopic.php?t=21394 ?
poteroa
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Re: NES PAL version, wavy edges on graphics

Post by poteroa »

lidnariq wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:47 pm Looks like this: viewtopic.php?t=21394 ?
Hi!

That was a fast reply..:D

Thank you, I seem to have totally same problem, except the wavy also changes the color of the edges.

I try to get few pics of the issue here later today, I do not want to believe that the pic is this bad, as seen in internet several vids that do not have this problem, on normal LCD TVs.

I am ready to go all way with replacing the PPU / CPU if needed, although would not want to replace stuff that is not needed..

Oh, and in Super Mario, when there is the level screen (black) the picture is crisp on all text and numbers, only when the colors and "full image" is on, its off, quite a bit..
lidnariq
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Re: NES PAL version, wavy edges on graphics

Post by lidnariq »

Is it only edges that are colored, or do the middle of large areas of solid color also have some color error?

If only edges, then I'm afraid that this is probably as good as the original PAL NES ever generated ... If you really want something better you might install a NESRGB or HDNES kit.
poteroa
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Re: NES PAL version, wavy edges on graphics

Post by poteroa »

lidnariq wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:01 pm Is it only edges that are colored, or do the middle of large areas of solid color also have some color error?

If only edges, then I'm afraid that this is probably as good as the original PAL NES ever generated ... If you really want something better you might install a NESRGB or HDNES kit.
Here are some pics:


https://ibb.co/NxLHDD6

https://ibb.co/r6f98NS

https://ibb.co/NS3my5N

And not talking about the wavy pic in general, as its there cause of the camera and sync of it..

The last pic you can see the wave on square surfaces, so the whole pic is off..
lidnariq
Posts: 11429
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:12 am

Re: NES PAL version, wavy edges on graphics

Post by lidnariq »

I regret to say that your HDTV sucks. :P

These are crops from "r6f98NS" = "20210401-062218"

"A":
20210401-062218-a.jpg
20210401-062218-a.jpg (27.1 KiB) Viewed 6760 times
Normal composite video chroma error. Some HDTVs do better or worse with transitions between black and a color, but this is within the range of normal.

"C":
20210401-062218-c.jpg
20210401-062218-c.jpg (35.07 KiB) Viewed 6760 times
Moiré effects from the grid of your HDTV and your camera. You shouldn't see these in person

"B":
20210401-062218-b.jpg
20210401-062218-b.jpg (40.82 KiB) Viewed 6760 times
and "D":
20210401-062218-d.jpg
20210401-062218-d.jpg (35.57 KiB) Viewed 6760 times
Your HDTV being Wrong. PAL isn't supposed to produce lines of horizontal dots in this situation, but modern TV use comb filter instead of a delay line, and so assume sudden change in colors from scanline to scanline mean lines of horizontal dots. Here's a related thread: viewtopic.php?t=18406

So ... on the bright side, your NES is working as designed. On the downside, you may want an OSSC or a NESRGB to improve the appearance.
poteroa
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Re: NES PAL version, wavy edges on graphics

Post by poteroa »

lidnariq wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:35 pm I regret to say that your HDTV sucks. :P

These are crops from "r6f98NS" = "20210401-062218"

"A":20210401-062218-a.jpgNormal composite video chroma error. Some HDTVs do better or worse with transitions between black and a color, but this is within the range of normal.

"C":20210401-062218-c.jpgMoiré effects from the grid of your HDTV and your camera. You shouldn't see these in person

"B":20210401-062218-b.jpg and "D":20210401-062218-d.jpgYour HDTV being Wrong. PAL isn't supposed to produce lines of horizontal dots in this situation, but modern TV use comb filter instead of a delay line, and so assume sudden change in colors from scanline to scanline mean lines of horizontal dots. Here's a related thread: viewtopic.php?t=18406

So ... on the bright side, your NES is working as designed. On the downside, you may want an OSSC or a NESRGB to improve the appearance.

Hi lidnariq.

Well, the wavyness is still there on other TV, on this where I took the pic off, has those small dots under the text, but on other there is none.

Both are Samsung LCD / LED TVs, but different ages..

Damn, do I need to get a CRT.. :D
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Ben Boldt
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Re: NES PAL version, wavy edges on graphics

Post by Ben Boldt »

At times like this, we must remind ourselves to embrace and cherish the delicious glitches and crunchiness of the NES.
poteroa
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Re: NES PAL version, wavy edges on graphics

Post by poteroa »

Ben Boldt wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:35 am At times like this, we must remind ourselves to embrace and cherish the delicious glitches and crunchiness of the NES.
Ben, you are so right! :D :beer:

Well tonight will try with a good old CRT TV. With RF modulator.. So I recon the picture will have all the above and then some..

Can't wait. :mrgreen:
Pokun
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Location: Hokkaido, Japan

Re: NES PAL version, wavy edges on graphics

Post by Pokun »

Is that Mario wearing floating pince-nez spectacles?
poteroa
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Re: NES PAL version, wavy edges on graphics

Post by poteroa »

Rf modulator, 14" CRT.. picture is perfect.

Well for a 1987 game console. 🤘
poteroa
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Re: NES PAL version, wavy edges on graphics

Post by poteroa »

Pokun wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:19 am Is that Mario wearing floating pince-nez spectacles?
:lol:
poteroa
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Re: NES PAL version, wavy edges on graphics

Post by poteroa »

Well, the problem is still there on CRT too.. Just did not notice it at first. But boy was it fun to play Mario for few days at the cabin..

On CRT the issue is not so clearly noticeable, but it exists. Graphics are much better on CRT though, even with the RF adapter. :D

I am starting to lean on power input circuit..

Power supply is the original AC one, symptoms are the same with DC one too.

As said, I recapped the 100uF caps under 7805 and replaced the 2200uF cap too, rubicons on mainboard are ok.

Maybe its time to take the scope out... :beer:
lidnariq
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Re: NES PAL version, wavy edges on graphics

Post by lidnariq »

Unfortunately, I promise, it's a problem with just how the NES generates video. Certain TVs might deal better with edges between different brightnesses of grey, but vertical lines between colors will always have that appearance.

NTSC NESes have a different artifact - the pattern happens every 3 scanlines instead of every 6 - so you might find an import Famicom to be less objectionable. Or you can use a separate PAL-to-RGB decoder ... although I don't know where you can get one from anymore.

Or you can buy one of the NESRGB or HDNES kits and retrofit it into your NES.
poteroa
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Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:35 pm

Re: NES PAL version, wavy edges on graphics

Post by poteroa »

lidnariq wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:57 pm Unfortunately, I promise, it's a problem with just how the NES generates video. Certain TVs might deal better with edges between different brightnesses of grey, but vertical lines between colors will always have that appearance.

NTSC NESes have a different artifact - the pattern happens every 3 scanlines instead of every 6 - so you might find an import Famicom to be less objectionable. Or you can use a separate PAL-to-RGB decoder ... although I don't know where you can get one from anymore.

Or you can buy one of the NESRGB or HDNES kits and retrofit it into your NES.
Hi again. :D

Thank you for the reply. I think I need to source another console and see is the issue totally the same.
(Need another one anyway for home use).

I will keep you posted as I get another one for comparison.

BR Pete
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