NES dev on retro pc

Discuss technical or other issues relating to programming the Nintendo Entertainment System, Famicom, or compatible systems. See the NESdev wiki for more information.

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rainwarrior
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Re: NES dev on retro pc

Post by rainwarrior »

Oziphantom wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:59 amBut even or the era the Apple // was a bad choice, you could get a lot better for a lot less.
I think this is an extremely debatable thing to say... very dependent on the specific time and place you want to choose for hardware prices. I'm not about to try and dig up old catalogs to make an argument, but I definitely want to protest.

The IIe was capable and relatively affordable. The hardware design was indeed very minimal, especially compared to IBM computers coming out at the time, but in some ways that may have been a plus. There were a lot of third-party / hobbyist add-ons for the Apple II (interesting example), compared to IBM machines which I think were relatively closed in comparison. Aside from the hardware, it was also massively popular with a lot of good software that may have been applicable here.

Also very relevant in the NES development case... you can write code and test it right on the Apple II before doing all the steps to make an NES test. Obviously can't test graphics/etc. but there's a ton of relevant stuff that would have been worth prototyping right on the Apple first. Comfort and ability programming an Apple II does transfer well to NES. In that particular time frame, I think there was a significant experience bonus to exploit by using this platform.

In the mid-80s I'd say a IIe was definitely a good choice for an NES developer. There were many other options, of course, but it looks like a very good one to me, retrospectively.
puppydrum64
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Re: NES dev on retro pc

Post by puppydrum64 »

Better yet, call it the Apple Two for maximum tilt.
Oziphantom
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Re: NES dev on retro pc

Post by Oziphantom »

calima wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:48 am I'm annoyed by the constant italics theatrics. Would it annoy Oziphantom back if I wrote Apple \\e?
Its not italics is a forward slash the apple//, I'm not being dramatic Apple are being dramatic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_IIe ... anuals.jpg its how it is written by Apple on their machines, the boot screen, the manuals etc

Do you prefer the original style of apple][? \\e is fine with me.
rainwarrior wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:50 pm
Oziphantom wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:59 amBut even or the era the Apple // was a bad choice, you could get a lot better for a lot less.
I think this is an extremely debatable thing to say... very dependent on the specific time and place you want to choose for hardware prices. I'm not about to try and dig up old catalogs to make an argument, but I definitely want to protest.

The IIe was capable and relatively affordable. The hardware design was indeed very minimal, especially compared to IBM computers coming out at the time, but in some ways that may have been a plus. There were a lot of third-party / hobbyist add-ons for the Apple II (interesting example), compared to IBM machines which I think were relatively closed in comparison. Aside from the hardware, it was also massively popular with a lot of good software that may have been applicable here.

Also very relevant in the NES development case... you can write code and test it right on the Apple II before doing all the steps to make an NES test. Obviously can't test graphics/etc. but there's a ton of relevant stuff that would have been worth prototyping right on the Apple first. Comfort and ability programming an Apple II does transfer well to NES. In that particular time frame, I think there was a significant experience bonus to exploit by using this platform.

In the mid-80s I'd say a IIe was definitely a good choice for an NES developer. There were many other options, of course, but it looks like a very good one to me, retrospectively.
The Atari series also has a 6502, the BBC micro also has a 6502, and Commodores also have a 6502. A BBC Master was faster and cheaper. If we are comparing platinum so 128K of 87. The 128 came out in 85, has 128K, two screens, faster disk access, larger disk storage, 341K per disk, 2x the cpu clock rate and 40 and 80 column output. $2000 for the Apple IIe with monitor, disk drive and 80col card vs $900 for a commodore 128D + 1902 monitor. Less than half the price, and if you wanted to you could still buy a 512K REU for less than the cost of the apple II and then have a 512K local copy of code and data for rapid assembly. A Commodore 64 was even cheaper, half the price again and can also use the larger disk and REU. For larger datasets and backups the Commodore range supports up to 4 drives.

The software and peripherals of the Commodore range dwarf the apple \\s. You would even be able to do some rough test graphics editing on the 64/128 and do some experiments with sprite movement while testing.The SID only has 3 voices, so you wouldn't be able to hear all of the music at once on it, but more than a 1 bit beeper. (Yes there are mockingboards for the apple II, there is also the Commodore SFX expander ) The Commodore 64 Programmers Reference Guide comes with full schematic and datasheets for all the chips. The Commodores' build in communications capabilities are so high that the PDS development system which has a large cart for the other systems is just wires soldered to a plug on the C64. http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/PDS_development_system (although they don't have a photo of the C64/128 adapter) As the C64/128 have built in RS-232 TTL support while on the Apple II you have to buy a card and pay another couple of hundred dollars.
The Atari 1200XL at $1000 while deemed overpriced compared to the commodore range, has 64K and a full keyboard. The Pokey chip has 4 channels but only does square and noise so may or may not be better than a SID in this regard. The graphics chip is a lot better than the Apple II and its method of operation is probably a bit too different from the NES, the improved colours and pallet would be a better choice for making NES graphics on. These machines did poorly and were heavily discounted and then the 130XE/800XE was also discounted a lot and way cheaper than an Apple II.

However also in 1985 the Amiga 1000 was released, and it with a monitor was $1,595 which is still cheaper than an Apple 2. And you now have 256K, multitasking, 880K disks and a 7mhz 68000 and it graphics and music easily outdoes the NESs and you could use it create graphics and audio on as well as assemble faster. Making a 6502 simulator to step the code would be still be a lot faster than stepping in a monitor on the Apple or 64/128.
I found this price list http://www.cvxmelody.net/Apple_II_syste ... l_1987.jpg those are Aus prices, the Apple //e 128K Colour system is $2,929 which was about $2000 USD it seems. https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/bank- ... o-AUD-1987

However yes, the Apple II would have been a nicer idea than using an IBM XT at 2.5times the price. And a better choice than using say a TRS-80 III or some other Z80 based machine. It's a workable choice and has some benefits over machine not equipped with a 6502, and compared to them it would appear a good choice. Compared to the other machines you could get for half the price with a 6502, it's a poor choice.
Pokun
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Re: NES dev on retro pc

Post by Pokun »

I remember some Japanese developers mentioning using an Apple II for Famicom development at least, and also they mentioned it was a good choice due to the 6502 CPU. I have no idea if the prices of all the mentioned machines were the same in Japan though.
Oziphantom
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Re: NES dev on retro pc

Post by Oziphantom »

Squaresoft used them.
Since Commodores where made in Japan, Satoru Iwata started on the Commodore PET, and made VIC-20 games for Commodore. There is a tale of then unveiling one of the computers, I think it was the VIC-20. And people where trying to dissemble the display model to try and see how they could sell it so cheaply. Commodore would have been a lot cheaper in Japan as well. But somehow Apple got a massive hold on Japan.
Pokun
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Re: NES dev on retro pc

Post by Pokun »

Yeah it's well known now that in the early days of the Famicom Iwata, coming from HALL which was not part of Nintendo, and was already an expert of 6502 due to his experience with the PET and VIC-20, while Nintendo's programmers were struggling with this, to them, new CPU.
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