Honest box art

A place for your artistic side. Discuss techniques and tools for pixel art on the NES, GBC, or similar platforms.
Bananmos
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Re: Honest box art

Post by Bananmos » Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:08 pm

zzo38 wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:39 pm
Goose2k wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:24 pm
And yes, even Tetris!
...

(But, maybe it can be made up, the game, that it is multiple blocks falling at the same time, but that is a different game, I think.)
Ironically, the Tengen version does have multiple fall blocks (well, two at least), in it's unique-for-the-time co-op mode.

Pokun
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Re: Honest box art

Post by Pokun » Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:56 am

DRW wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:03 am
And for everybody who wants to claim that the theme of "Minesweeper" is actually part of the game's fun and that they actually emerge into the mine searching narrative, here's a test:

Sudoku doesn't have a narrative or a theme. Does this mean you get less enjoyment out of it because the theme could be that you're bulding houses that have to stand next to each other in a visually pleasing way? Do you really consider it a loss that Sudoku doesn't pretend to be the story about a city planner?
Of course it's a loss. I already said I even like to imagine Backgammon pieces to be living creatures that moves, and the fox game is really about foxes and sheep and so on.
I didn't know checkers was about kangaroos though?

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DRW
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Re: Honest box art

Post by DRW » Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:06 pm

Pokun wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:56 am
Of course it's a loss.
Yeah, sure. As if you ever looked at Sudoku before this discussion and thought: "Man, I really wish they would have added a storyline for this".
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Pokun
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Re: Honest box art

Post by Pokun » Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:07 am

Well you believe what you want.

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DRW
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Re: Honest box art

Post by DRW » Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:03 pm

You seriously wanna tell me, completely without any hint of irony, that you looked at a sudoku when they became popular and you literally thought to yourself:

"Man, I wish they would have made up a little story for these. Would have made the act of putting the correct numbers in the boxes a much better experience."

This is what you thought when you saw your first sudoku? Really? You wanna claim that those were the thoughts that went through your mind?
You consciously looked at those mathematical brain teasers and actively thought that these riddles should have had a layer of fiction, a storyline that describes what the numbers and boxes are supposed to be? You lamented the fact that the inventors of sudoku just had the number riddle be a number riddle and didn't declare that the numbers in the boxes are supposed to be animals in a barn?

You really spent a single thought on this before we had our discussion? That's what you want to tell me?
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tepples
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Re: Honest box art

Post by tepples » Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:10 am

Battle Chess was an interesting concept, even though movement and capture animations ended up awfully slow on the NES.

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Re: Honest box art

Post by Drag » Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:45 pm

For games that can't really have intricate storylines, like card games and the like, photoshoots could work nicely as box art.

So, for example, the box art for a Sudoku game could depict a cozy table with a Sudoku book open to one of the pages, some numbers filled out, and a pencil laying on it. Maybe some other things like eyeglasses or a pocket watch can be sat beside the book. Concentration Room can be similar; a table with cards laid out on it, one card turned over, and a hand reaching out and flipping over a second, matching card.

Those are honest depictions of the game, even if the game itself doesn't visually use graphics to suggest it being played on a table or whatnot.

A minesweeper game with box art to suggest action-oriented gameplay is disingenuous in my opinion, unless you somehow were able to modify the base game of minesweeper into something that thematically encompasses a realistic landscape and a control scheme where, instead of clicking on any tile, you have to physically walk over the tiles and not step on anything that explodes in the process. If you're going to get that creative with the minesweeper formula, you'd be better off calling it something different. :P

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Re: Honest box art

Post by tepples » Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:09 pm

Drag wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:45 pm
A minesweeper game with box art to suggest action-oriented gameplay is disingenuous in my opinion, unless you somehow were able to modify the base game of minesweeper into something that thematically encompasses a realistic landscape and a control scheme where, instead of clicking on any tile, you have to physically walk over the tiles and not step on anything that explodes in the process. If you're going to get that creative with the minesweeper formula, you'd be better off calling it something different. :P
Minesweeper where you start at one corner of the field and use king moves to proceed to the opposite corner without crossing a mine is called Relentless Logic (RLogic). I'd like to see a version where you play first as the front team, finding a safe path through a field, and then as the rear team, finding and marking all mines even if they weren't on the path.

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Gilbert
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Re: Honest box art

Post by Gilbert » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:04 pm

Well, there are Minesweeper games that come with a story mode with a excuse plot story that's hardly related to mines.
In the linked case the CD jacket (yes! that game came in a CD!) could still be honest art if it depicts the exciting adventure of a cook looking for giant eggs. Too bad it wasn't. The jacket was just identical to the title screen of the game. It's a missed opportunity.

Also, in Italy we have Flowers instead. What should the cover show then? A girl picking flowers fused to underground bombs?

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Re: Honest box art

Post by Pokun » Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:12 am

But the other modes in that PC-Engine game are about minesweeping, so it would be kind of weird if the boxart depicts only the minigame that isn't even related to the minesweeping theme of the title.

DRW wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:03 pm
You seriously wanna tell me, completely without any hint of irony, that you looked at a sudoku when they became popular and you literally thought to yourself:

"Man, I wish they would have made up a little story for these. Would have made the act of putting the correct numbers in the boxes a much better experience."
You are putting the words in my mouth. I meant that a game abstract enough like Sudoku is a less inspiring game than a game like Backgammon or Chess. About any game that uses moveable pawns are easy to imagine that the pawns are depicting humans or other living creatures moving in a physical space, but in Sudoku it's kind of hard to imagine what it's simulating or what the goal is. Why should I put numbers in boxes when there is no princess to rescue? Without context, numbers are meaningless things.

tepples wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:09 pm
Minesweeper where you start at one corner of the field and use king moves to proceed to the opposite corner without crossing a mine is called Relentless Logic (RLogic). I'd like to see a version where you play first as the front team, finding a safe path through a field, and then as the rear team, finding and marking all mines even if they weren't on the path.
So if Relentless Logic is a predecessor to Minesweeper, it appears that the minesweeping theme is older than the mechanics.

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DRW
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Re: Honest box art

Post by DRW » Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:40 am

Pokun wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:12 am
You are putting the words in my mouth. I meant that a game abstract enough like Sudoku is a less inspiring game than a game like Backgammon or Chess.
About putting words in your mouth:
When I sarcastically said:
As if you ever looked at Sudoku before this discussion and thought: "Man, I really wish they would have added a storyline for this".
you didn't say:

"Of course I didn't consciously think specifically about Sudoku: "I miss a plot in that game." I just want to say that now where you ask me, I can say that the game is generally less inspiring than games with a story."

Instead, you said:
Pokun wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:07 am
Well you believe what you want.
as if to claim that, yes, you did have these conscious thoughts about Sudoku and I'm free to not believe you that you had those thoughts, but you had them anyway.
That's what "you believe what you want" usually means:

"You wanna tell me that you met the Beatles in person when they were still not that popular? No way, man!"
"Well, you believe what you want."

Pokun wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:07 am
Why should I put numbers in boxes when there is no princess to rescue?
Because Sudoku is a brain jogging game, not an adventure. It trains your concentration and mathematical abilities. It's not supposed to be some make-believe situation.
"Why should I do pushups when there's no princess to rescue?"

When you put a puzzle of a city together, do you also don't have fun unless you imagine yourself to be the mayor from "Sim City"?
And if you switch the channel on your TV, do you imagine yourself to be some interdimensional space traveler and the TV channels are parallel universes that you visit?
Do you also invent a plot for tying your shoelaces? Maybe you're a god who is creating the Gordian Knot as a challenge for Alexander the Great. And the other shoelace, that's the Gordian Knot in the mirror world, like with the Triforces of Hyrule and Lorule.
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Pokun
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Re: Honest box art

Post by Pokun » Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:47 am

You are being unreasonable, why would I lie about my own opinion of a matter that means little to anyone else? That's why I answered that you can believe what you want when you act like I'm lying, despite I'm having no reason to.


You basically mean Sudoku is more of a training type of game than a having-mindless-fun type of game, kind of like "edutainment", and I don't disagree to that. It has it's upsides and downsides, I never meant that Sudoku is a bad game.


A jigsaw puzzle of a city is a game close to Sudoku, story-less and thus not stimulating in the same way.

Shoelaces and all that are just daily tasks, not games, so I think those are irrelevant to the discussion.

I generally don't consider pushups and other such exercises games either (something like a tennis match is a game though). I do running, workout in gym and karate, and while karate is fun in general, I don't consider the actual exercises to be games or even to be fun on their own (often they are hellish and I just want them to end). Gym workout and especially running are not really fun at all and I only do it to get stronger and to stay healthy.

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DRW
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Re: Honest box art

Post by DRW » Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:41 pm

Pokun wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:47 am
why would I lie about my own opinion of a matter that means little to anyone else?
I don't think you lie about your opinion in general. I just think that you twist the truth when you make it sound like you actually thought about Sudoku not having a plot. I'm pretty convinced that this discussion here is the very first time that you ever put those two things, Sudoku and story, together.

And why you should do this? Because people tend to create ad-hoc opinions on the fly to not lose a discussion.

Once I discussed with my aunt whether a Christian of today should feel guilty for the stuff the Catholic Church did in the middle ages.
When I tried to demonstrate her the absurdity of this argument, I told her: "According to your logic, you should feel ashamed for being a German because of what the nazis did. Do you feel ashamed for being a German?"
It was a rhetorical question. And yet, she said: "Yes, I do."
However, up until this point, she never showed shame for being a German.
She spontaneously invented a stance on a topic, just to not lose the argument, even though it isn't really her stance in real life. If someone asked her what country she comes from, she would just say Germany in a neutral way. She wouldn't sink her head and say in a shameful voice: "Unfortunately, I'm one of those filthy Germans. I hate myself." It's clear that her affirmative answer to my question was only meant as a counter argument to not lose the discussion. But it wasn't her true opinion. Neither before, nor afterward did she ever feel shame for her nationality. It was purely an ac-hoc stance meant for this very discussion.

People do this all the time. One member on this forum who doesn't like me tried to take it out on me when I mentioned my game. He said I shouldn't promote my game constantly. When I bitched back, he suddenly invented his "opinion" that he doesn't like it in general when people promote their own games.
The proof that this was a straight-up lie: He never called out tepples for mentioning "Haunted Halloween" a bazillion time on this forum. So, again, a person invented an ad-hoc opinion to not lose the argument, even though the thought "I hate it when people promote their own games here" literally never crossed his mind before that instance.

Try it out: Argue with some person about something. Then ask a totally exaggerated question to point out his flaws. The person will affirm the exaggerated stance to be able to keep his opinion.

Fictitious example: If someone borrows you money and you win the jackpot with that money and now he is jealous and thinks you owe him half of the jackpot because he gave you the money in the first place, you could ask him: "Does this mean if I write a book that becomes a bestseller, I have to share the profit with my first grade teacher because he taught me reading and writing?", guess what: He will say yes. And guess what: Never before in his life has he ever thought about the idea that book authors owe their profit to their elementary school teachers. And never again will he ever mention this stance. But in this very situation, he will pretend that this is actually what he believes, so that you don't destroy his argument about the money and the jackpot.

Similar thing here: When I basically told you: "Don't be silly about the theme of Minesweeper enriching the experience. Do you also miss a story in Sudoku?", you pretended that, indeed, you do.
But I'm pretty sure that there was never a single moment in your life before our discussion when you actually thought: "Man, why can't Sudoku have a plot?"
Hence, up until now you didn't hold that opinion about Sudoku, simply because you never thought about it. Yet here you are, telling me that the missing story in Sudoku is an actual loss.

If that's really your opinion, tell me when you thought about this fact before our discussion? When did you ever see a Sudoku and thought: "So boring without a plot"? Because if those thoughts never crossed your mind in the past, then the statement that the missing plot is a loss for you is a clear lie: If you never thought about it, you obviously never missed it. And if you never missed it, you couldn't have felt this is a loss.
So, if you want to be convincing, explain me the situation in your life where you actually felt disappointment for Sudoku not having a plot.
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tepples
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Re: Honest box art

Post by tepples » Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:30 pm

It may just be the case that some abstract puzzle games are more themable than others.

The U.S. patent for Dr. Mario lists themability as one advantage over Tetris. It may also be true of Minesweeper and other descendants of Relentless Logic compared to Sudoku-type puzzles. Compare Atari's Codebreaker, whose box art depicted a "sleuth or spy" (as Unicode now calls it) to thematically represent its clone of Mordecai Meirowitz's Mastermind.

zzo38
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Re: Honest box art

Post by zzo38 » Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:59 pm

I think many kind of games don't need the story/themes and works OK without any. Even if they have (in some cases), it doesn't have to be the main part of them. (But, it depend on the game, I think.)

I think that box art should be honest to don't try to show the game play being something that it isn't. In the case of Tetris, this mean the multiple blocks falling at once; everything else is just the art style. But in some cases this cannot be done, anyways. For highly story based games (such as many text adventure games), depicting a scene from the story would work. It depend on the game, to decide, what is best way. Sometimes, screenshots will work best. But sometimes there doesn't seem any good way to make it honestly, so you will just have to forgo honesty in this case (there is no point just discarding the game). However, regardless of the box art, I think that you should add text on the box to explain what it is for; don't judge only by the picture.
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