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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:29 am 
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tokumaru wrote:
I see no reason for a program not to work the same across different emulators and consoles

The reason to not fix problems that only occurs in certain emulators is to force these emulators to improve. If none of existing programs show a problem in an emulator, it is not going to be fixed.


Last edited by Shiru on Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:30 am 
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Two bit's and the LDA $4015 LDA #$FF 2 lines later is just....I dunno.

I guess the lda $4015 is to acknownledge APU IRQs.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:57 am 
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3gengames wrote:
00000024: 2C0220 BIT $2002
00000027: 2C0220 BIT $2002
0000002A: 10FB BPL $FB
0000002C: 2C0220 BIT $2002
0000002F: 10FB BPL $FB

This code is exactly the "best practice" code in PPU power up state on the wiki. The PPU isn't fully warmed up until one full frame has happened (picture, post-render, vblank, pre-render). Power-cycling at just the right time might cause the vblank flag to be true even during picture. From the article:
Quote:
If the NES is powered on after having been off for less than 20 seconds, register writes are ignored as if it were a reset, and register starting values differ: $2002 = $80 (VBL flag set)

So the first BIT is to turn off the vblank flag. Then the next loop is to wait for the first frame's vblank, and the next loop is to wait for the second frame's vblank, at which point the PPU is actually stable.

Shiru wrote:
If none of existing programs show a problem in an emulator, it is not going to be fixed.

And with Nestopia on what appears to be an extended hiatus, even newly developed test programs might not lead to emulator fixes.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:05 am 
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Well still, that's some strange code to me for startup, but the program still shoves data to the PPU constantly from looking at FCEUX. That's not good practice. :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:09 am 
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Shiru wrote:
The reason to not fix problems that only occurs in certain emulators is to force these emulators to improve. If none of existing programs show a problem in an emulator, it is not going to be fixed.

I agree, but unless your program ABSOLUTELY NEEDS to exploit hardware quirks, it's better to play safe and obey the basic rules than risk making it unstable even on hardware just for the heck of it.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:10 am 
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Gotta have it work on clones too! :roll: :wink: :twisted:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:12 am 
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3gengames wrote:
Well still, that's some strange code to me for startup, but the program still shoves data to the PPU constantly from looking at FCEUX. That's not good practice. :roll:

I wouldn't be surprised if it was just dumping the whole name table at once without caring about the end of the vertical blank, because that's exactly what appears to be happening.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:16 am 
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I wouldn't be surprised if it was just dumping the whole name table at once without caring about the end of the vertical blank, because that's exactly what appears to be happening.

and they call it "intentional glitching". Let me laugh :
MWAHAHAHAHAHA

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:18 am 
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Bregalad wrote:
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I wouldn't be surprised if it was just dumping the whole name table at once without caring about the end of the vertical blank, because that's exactly what appears to be happening.

and they call it "intentional glitching". Let me laugh :
MWAHAHAHAHAHA


This....don't wanna be mean, but there's a point where I just can't help but say you're Doing It Very Wrong. :x

Lol :P


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:03 am 
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Dwedit wrote:
Wow, this is absolute crap. It can't maintain a stable picture on any emulator.
Music isn't very good either. I've heard much better songs posted on the Famitracker message boards.
It's possible to refresh an entire NES screen in 4 frames with no flickering and no jumping by using a decent unrolled PPU copy loop, but this demo is just made of fail.
Too bad the author intentionally made it this way, he can do much better than this.

If you're looking for a good demo, try the Bad Apple demo.


Wow I just absolutely love that Bad Apple...fantastic! It tells a story, is entertaining, is crisp, and very well done. None of that can be said for the other demo. However, I couldn't produce either, so I can't really complain.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:20 am 
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Bad Apple is just a conversion of a famous Touhou-related video. So story, entertaining, etc is not merit of the demo, it is just a image sequence player. So the demo we discussing here is actually better as a demo than the Bad Apple demo.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:39 am 
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Just to shed some light on this:

ASM2011 was brought to my attention by a Swedish friend of mine, who told me "Hey! Check out this live feed, they're playing NES demos". When I got around to checking, they were playing the demo mentioned here.

I was absolutely appalled. *That* was what someone came up with? Hol-y-shit. The instability of the graphics, and just the whole nature of absolute gobbledegook all over the screen... I said "Are they doing this on an emu which isn't playing it right? Is it NTSC and they're playing it on PAL, since this is in Finland? WTF!". Said Swedish friend wasn't sure, but he too agreed it looked like shit.

Fast forward a few days. He gets back to me: apparently the demo is *supposed* to look that way, citing "artistic representation". (EDIT: Literal quote: "it's an art statement").

For what it's worth, the 3-4 demos after that all had the same general style (there was a 386/DOS + VGA one which was a complete joke. I hoped it was a 64KByte compo or something, but it wasn't).

Here's my take on it: drugs. I'm not bullshitting either. Drugs are the only explanation. I cannot tell you how many times I've run into either stoned or people tripping on {insert psychadelic of your choice here} trying to tell me how cool something looks (or sounds) when in fact it's complete shit. I pretty much throw this demo into that category. Drugs are the only explanation. And this statement comes from a guy who's done LSD twice and tried marijuana a couple times (bad drug for me to take; makes me the most paranoid bastard on the planet, it mixes *very* badly with my social and generalised anxiety).

I'll go as far as to probably piss off one of the coolest guys on the nesdev forum here -- Memblers. I remember many years ago (10+) and Memblers was doing some occasional NES music "stuff", combined with some occasional code/demo-esque stuff. It was all crap (sorry pal, it was). None of it had any rhythm or organisation; it was like you were on serious hard-core drugs when you were creating all of this and thought it was interesting/awesome. It wasn't. Fast forward to today, and all I see are super cool works and songs which have good rhythm and organisation to them. Plus (I think) you cut your hair. So I'm left thinking "maybe he stopped doing as many drugs"... ;-)

But then again, I love Pink Floyd but think most of Dark Side of the Moon sucks. *shrug*


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:54 am 
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You know koitsu, you don't need to use drugs to do shitty stuff.

However to think this demo is cool, effectively you'd have to be somehow stoned.

Quote:
This....don't wanna be mean, but there's a point where I just can't help but say you're Doing It Very Wrong.

My comment was much less harsh than Koitsu's towards the demo.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:02 pm 
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Yeah. Hell, you can be paid and do shitty stuff, Action 52 anyone? :P

And heh, it was. :3 And were there any good demos from that thing?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:32 pm 
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Like I said, there is a genre of demo that this demo is seems belong to. Demos in this genre looks like they are result of a computer glitch, some noise or garbage that sometimes makes certain shapes. There is a kind of such music too. So no drugs or shitty coding necesarrily involved, it easily could be intentional.

For example, a demogroup skrju made many demos in this genre for ZX Spectrum. Check some of them out to see similarity (youtube): why, idiot, fuckyouscene. This genre is highly controversial, with two general opinions: complete crap or complete genious.


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