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Subject is a required field
https://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=17085
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Author:  tepples [ Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Subject is a required field

I'd prefer something like "A reimagining of..." But pubby and Paul at Infinite NES Lives have the final say.

Author:  M_Tee [ Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Subject is a required field

tepples wrote:
1. What changes still need to be made?

2. What title should I have used instead for this topic?

3. How can I recognize situations like this in the future where I will have done wrong?

4. What should I do differently in each such situation?


1. Is not for me to address (although I think the original had an exclamation mark after classic), but if I were in the author's shoes, I'd be satisfied by now.

2. Something like "Handling Game Descriptions with Intentional Misdirection" is likely how I'd phrase it… just something that would either be neutrally stated (or if neutral phrasing isn't available, erring on the side of positive connotation out of respect for those whose work is being discussed). Bait and switch has a strong negative connotation. Using it to describe someone else's work impolite at best, outright insulting at worst.

3. When contemplating a change, ask yourself, "Why would the author have done it this way to begin with?" and if you can't come up with a good reason, asking the author directly, would be a good start.

4. If at all possible, when contemplating a change, post it for the author to approve. If the change is drastic, phrase it as a suggestion or request. For instance, "I feel description x is inappropriate for this reason. Would it be okay if I used description y instead?" If the answer returned is still unsatisfactory to you, then allowing the author to come up with a solution. Such as, "I'm still uncomfortable with x. I would like to achieve [goal]. Is there a solution you have in mind that would achieve both (my desired goal and yours)?"

I appreciate the uniformity in formatting, and I fully understand and appreciate the need for grammatical and spelling corrections, etc. (I had to make a few of those on the poster for last year's) But, like Frankengraphics pointed out, there is a long enough time prior to publication to allow for mutually agreed upon corrections to be made. This is not only important for showing courtesy to the author, but also for accuracy. Sometimes your changes may end up including inaccurate information based on an honest misunderstanding (such as seems to be the case in the current Grunio A53 description, but I'll address that in its appropriate thread.)

Author:  M_Tee [ Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to handle Star Evil and other bait and switch games

lidnariq wrote:
I did not expect something of very low quality (Why would I? It was submitted to the compo) …

Ah, now I see where the disconnect is occurring. Thanks for explaining it.

I feel that the screenshot (including its poor graphics, and basic description) were designed to give me low expectations for the game. The fact that it was submitted to the competition is what urged me to fiddle around with the controller under the assumption "certainly no one would submit something this unplayable, right?"

To me, the above seems obvious. To you, it clearly does not. Thus, the confusion between us. I should have elaborated earlier.
Quote:
Separately, in my experience, the result is not unique, and in its entirety it has two events that count as "interesting" to me, of which one counts to me as subtly abusive.

If there are other games that have the player explore a world that exists outside of a Game Over screen, I'm unaware of them.
Quote:
…other people enjoying it doesn't mean I don't feel misled by describing it as a remake.

Call it an "homage", "inspired by", remove the descriptive text altogether, whatever. The thing that upsets me is that in my opinion, the menu should appear to be a neutral arbiter, and because to me "remake" implies things that this isn't, and that in turn negatively affects the appearance of neutrality of the menu.

If the term "remake" was the only thing initially disputed, I have little doubt that an adequate description satisfactory to both parties would have been achieved long ago.

However, we shouldn't forcibly alter the player's experience with the game (even if that experience is viewed as negative by some) has been my primary argument.

Author:  lidnariq [ Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to handle Star Evil and other bait and switch games

M_Tee wrote:
If there are other games that have the player explore a world that exists outside of a Game Over screen, I'm unaware of them.
I don't remember instances where it's specifically outside of a Game Over screen, but ... is that all that different from games where you "break out" of the game and start rummaging around the rest of the program that is the game (e.g. Hack 'N' Slash) or virtual computer (Pony Island might count)? I feel like I've seen a fairly noticeable number of those lately.

Recursed has extra bonus puzzles as exception handlers. (If that sounds weird ... well ... yes, it is, but I can't recommend it enough)

Author:  NovaSquirrel [ Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Subject is a required field

I don't think "bait and switch" is even negative anymore, at least not in the context of releasing stuff online. Nowadays in Internet culture you've got things like Siivagunner high quality rips, where intentionally misrepresenting the thing you're posting is the whole point, and then having it lead into something else (and surprising a viewer that's unfamiliar with it) is popular and playful.

When I saw Star Evil, combined with F-FF misrepresenting itself as a boring racing game, I thought that sort of playfulness was exactly what pubby was going for.

Author:  Kasumi [ Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Subject is a required field

Another different game that hits some similar notes is Pause Ahead. But there are actually quite many with fake glitches and the like. Most of those I can name, I think it's technically spoilers, though. Pause Ahead, I feel most people play expecting the gimmick.

Author:  tepples [ Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Subject is a required field

And the intentional glitches in Eternal Darkness were so original that Nintendo got a patent. But at least those glitches were honestly marketed.

Author:  rainwarrior [ Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to handle Star Evil and other bait and switch games

tepples wrote:
Am I still out of line?

With a few words changed the post that crossed the line, for me would have been perfectly fine.

If this was posed as a suggestion for Pubby to consider, that's no problem in my view.

If it was posed by anyone else who is not the editor, also no problem, because it's automatically only a suggestion.

Instead, you presented it as an action of authority, and I've already explained why I think that establishes a harmful precedent. HOWEVER it's mitigated entirely by you at least being open about it. You haven't actually committed this act of censorship, you merely stated an intent to do so publicly, and you were de facto looking for commentary on it. In truth it was the suggestion it should be, only it wasn't initially worded that way.


(Smaller changes benefit from similar treatment. "I found some spelling errors" is vastly superior to "I fixed your spelling errors.")

Author:  tepples [ Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Subject is a required field

Which is exactly why I posted it before doing anything. I guess I should have been more explicit about the intent being "Any better suggestions?", just as I should have been more explicit in the other topic of intending to introduce the analogy between misogynist men centuries ago and console makers now in the other topic.

Perhaps I was the one who baited and switched.

Author:  Myask [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Press start to begin…arguments.

"Start: begin game" is already a cute riddle.

Author:  infiniteneslives [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Subject is a required field

Sorry late to the party here... I'm rather glad this thread's title didn't attract my interest until now though as I didn't actually get a chance to play until after the thread died down. Safe to say reading this thread beforehand would have spoiled the game for me.

tepples wrote:
I'd prefer something like "A reimagining of..." But pubby and Paul at Infinite NES Lives have the final say.


I don't feel like my opinion is that important in this specific game, so I'll save it. The bigger question is who decides what message players are to be presented with prior to playing the game. Provided it's not obscene I honestly think this should be up to the creator. While I get the arguments for the menu to be neutral, the risks/damages involved with over ruling creator's expression are much more significant than some number of players not enjoying or getting that one game because of a sentence.

Ultimately creator is the one responsible for making a game that's an enjoyable experience for their targeted player and the instructions are an extension of the game.

If people playing the game have recommendations to the creator on how the instructions could have be improved, the creator can choose what to do with that feedback. I don't feel this is something we need to regulate as compo/cartridge organizers.

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