Any Atari sprite algorithm you know of?

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Oziphantom
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Re: Any Atari sprite algorithm you know of?

Post by Oziphantom » Thu May 25, 2017 11:33 pm

This seems to be an Atari Age problem, I feel there is another reason at work.

⌐■-■⌐■-■⌐■-■⌐■-■⌐■-■ <- first take a pair of Atari Rose Tints

So the 2600 was Atari first foray and it was AMAZING but then they brought out the 5200... then the 7800 and it was the best machine ever... just those clowns in retail never saw it so there are about 5 games for it only... this sucks...

RandomPerson : So I want to do this on a 2600?
Atari People : Dude don't waste your time on the 2600, when there is the glory of the 7800, which makes the thing trivial...
RandomPerson : The What? Nah 2600 is good for me
> Throw those glasses away

Atari People - have to stare in the absolute illogical apathy of the world... Nobody cares about their favourite system, and will gleefully time after time play with the clearly inferior system and nobody makes any games for them to play on their favourite system

But they are basically doing the same thing as
A:I want to do this on NROM
B:You might be able to squeeze it out, but why? MMC3 and done
Just MMC3/5 etc are still perceived as a NES when in actual fact a MMC3 is to a NES as a 5200 is to a 2600 ;) (well okay not quite but getting there ;) )

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tokumaru
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Re: Any Atari sprite algorithm you know of?

Post by tokumaru » Fri May 26, 2017 1:10 am

Oziphantom wrote:in actual fact a MMC3 is to a NES as a 5200 is to a 2600 ;) (well okay not quite but getting there ;) )
The MMC5, maybe... Since it does away with 2 of the major limitations of the NES that newcomers often complain about: only 256 tiles for the background (the MMC5 can do 16384) and the 16x16-pixel attribute grid (the MMC5 can assign palettes to individual tiles). The extra sprite patterns you get if you use 8x16-pixel sprites (512 patterns instead of 256) and extra audio channels you get on the Famicom are not to be sneezed at either. The MMC5 is also fairly rare and obscure, just like Atari's follow ups to the 2600, and is not generally recommended around here.

The MMC3 on the other hand is pretty basic really... in addition to regular PRG bankswitching (which many 2600 games also have), it does CHR bankswitching in chunks fine enough to aid character and background animations. The other significant feature it has is a scanline counter, which several other consoles had out of the box (even the 2600 has some pretty useful timers, although they don't generate IRQs), so I wouldn't consider this cheating. Also, the MMC3 was so widely used back in the day (bootgod's database suggests that almost 1/4 of the games used it) that its additions were eventually considered "normal" for NES standards. MMC3 boards are very abundant and the mapper has been cloned by cartridge makers, so I see no reason to avoid it.

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FrankenGraphics
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Re: Any Atari sprite algorithm you know of?

Post by FrankenGraphics » Fri May 26, 2017 1:03 pm

Should using the MMC5 be considered cheating, though? I get coding for NROM or even MMC3 can be more for a sport, but unlike any of the more obscure atari consoles, MMC5 is still compatible with a system that everyone and their cousin has or have had, figuratively speaking. Which means that if you can make a game or application for it, the barrier to see what cool stuff you can come up with for the MMC5 isn't as large. And the stuff can still be great for its own standard. The main problem is procuring the hardware, right?
http://www.frankengraphics.com - personal NES blog

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tokumaru
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Re: Any Atari sprite algorithm you know of?

Post by tokumaru » Fri May 26, 2017 1:38 pm

FrankenGraphics wrote:Should using the MMC5 be considered cheating, though?
I guess most people would say "no", but opinions vary. I just don't think it's practical, since you can't get cartridges made without cannibalizing old hardware.

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gauauu
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Re: Any Atari sprite algorithm you know of?

Post by gauauu » Fri May 26, 2017 1:59 pm

This is funny. There's been similar debates in the Atari community about what things are "cheating" -- there's a good bit of work being done now using cartridges with a more powerul co-processor that feeds the data to the Atari, and some are crying foul.

When it comes down to it, though, the two leading opinions are:
- Anything that fits in a standard cartridge and runs on a stock atari (using the Atari's input/output) is ok
- Anything that uses mappers/bankswitching/technology that was available when the console was current is ok.

MMC5 is legit by both those criteria. :-)

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Re: Any Atari sprite algorithm you know of?

Post by tepples » Fri May 26, 2017 3:09 pm

That definition means that for Game Gear, nothing is cheating because a TV tuner existed. Plug in an Xbox.

One might define cheating as that which can't be reproduced with all new parts. How big of a CPLD would a substantial subset of an MMC5 need?

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Re: Any Atari sprite algorithm you know of?

Post by lidnariq » Fri May 26, 2017 3:25 pm

I feel like the only reason people ever want the MMC5 is for the EXRAM modes (i.e. 8x8 attributes, left-and-right split), which is firmly in FPGA territory.

The other things provided by the MMC5 (two extra audio channels, IRQ, slightly more advanced PRG banking, extended CHR banking, more sophisticated nametable control, hardware multiplier) are mostly all provided by other "lesser" mappers.

Oh, the MMC5 does have the ability to bank PRG RAM into $8000-$DFFF. That's kinda important.

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Myask
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Re: Any Atari sprite algorithm you know of?

Post by Myask » Fri May 26, 2017 3:39 pm

L/R split isn't ExRAM. 8x8 is relatively cheap, but nobody's bothered standardizing any other designs for it.

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gauauu
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Re: Any Atari sprite algorithm you know of?

Post by gauauu » Fri May 26, 2017 3:45 pm

tepples wrote:That definition means that for Game Gear, nothing is cheating because a TV tuner existed. Plug in an Xbox.
If you can fit an Xbox inside a standard game gear cartridge, then yes.

lidnariq
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Re: Any Atari sprite algorithm you know of?

Post by lidnariq » Fri May 26, 2017 4:08 pm

Myask wrote:L/R split isn't ExRAM.
Where do you think the alternate nametable for the split is stored?

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tokumaru
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Re: Any Atari sprite algorithm you know of?

Post by tokumaru » Fri May 26, 2017 4:11 pm

The Famicom Disk System, for example, doesn't fit inside a standard Famicom cartridge.

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Myask
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Re: Any Atari sprite algorithm you know of?

Post by Myask » Fri May 26, 2017 4:23 pm

gauauu wrote:
tepples wrote:That definition means that for Game Gear, nothing is cheating because a TV tuner existed. Plug in an Xbox.
If you can fit an Xbox inside a standard game gear cartridge, then yes.
Why? It's like the FDS RAM adaptor cart…

…ninja'd.

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gauauu
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Re: Any Atari sprite algorithm you know of?

Post by gauauu » Fri May 26, 2017 6:49 pm

I'm not saying there aren't other valid definitions. I was just giving examples of two common definitions used, and how MMc5 fits both. (And how an Xbox connected to a game gear fits neither of the two descriptions that I describe).

Personally, I don't care what definition people use as "ok" vs cheating. People make games for their own reasons, who am I to say something is cheating?
Last edited by gauauu on Fri May 26, 2017 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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gauauu
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Re: Any Atari sprite algorithm you know of?

Post by gauauu » Fri May 26, 2017 6:52 pm

tokumaru wrote:The Famicom Disk System, for example, doesn't fit inside a standard Famicom cartridge.
But it meets criteria #2: technology that was available when the system was being sold.

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Re: Any Atari sprite algorithm you know of?

Post by tepples » Fri May 26, 2017 7:36 pm

I'll play along.

SEGA discontinued the Game Gear in April 1997, and Majesco's second-source units dropped support for the TV Tuner. So replace "Xbox" with consoles introduced before second quarter 1997: the Saturn, original PlayStation, and Nintendo 64.

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