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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:19 pm 
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Yeah, the Sega Saturn is the only Sega console I don't own, only because it didn't have any Sonic games (Except for Sonic R) Which was weird because it was the only Sega console to not have a Sonic game that was part of the main series (Okay, for all you nerds out there, I guess that the SG-1000 didn't have any either) I mean even the Sega Pico had a Sonic game, and you can't get much more obscure then that. I've heard that Sega had early intentions to release a Sonic game at around the same time as Nintendo released Super Mario 64, because everyone was trying to hop onto the 3d-platformer bandwagon at that time. As a matter of fact, they even had a fully complete game, but they didn't release it because it was extremely glitchy. The game was called Sonic X-Treme. I don't know why that game was cancelled but Sonic '06 still hit store shelves. I'd imagine it was most likely because they had a deal with Microsoft to release it at the launch of the Xbox 360.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:04 pm 
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Sonic X-Treme wasn't completed. The development team literally worked themselves sick trying to make the game.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:54 pm 
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DementedPurple wrote:
Yeah, the Sega Saturn is the only Sega console I don't own, only because it didn't have any Sonic games (Except for Sonic R)

It also had Sonic 3D Blast and Sonic Jam, but I assume you mean exclusive games?

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I mean even the Sega Pico had a Sonic game, and you can't get much more obscure then that.

But that wasn't a main series game or even in the same style, so if that fits the bill, the 3 Saturn games do too.

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The game was called Sonic X-Treme.

The development of Sonic X-treme was very chaotic... It went through several game engines after the the japanese Sonic Team didn't allow the American developers to use the Nights into Dreams engine, and they just couldn't get a proper Sonic game done. The most famous iteration of Sonic X-treme had a nauseating fisheye camera and weird physics, Sega certainly did the right thing by cancelling it.

Development of Sonic Adventure started on the Saturn (there are some screenshots of it), but it was eventually moved to the Dreamcast. The 3D world in Sonic Jam apparently uses the engine of that early version of Adventure.

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I don't know why that game was cancelled

AFAIK, it was far from finished, and from all the material we were able to gather about it, it clearly wasn't gonna be a good game.

Sonic team got started on a Sonic game for the Saturn, but it was already too late. The 3D world in Sonic Jam is really cool, I wonder how a Sonic game in that style would have turned out... Maybe it would've made Sonic's transition to 3D completely different, and the 3D games today wouldn't have departed so much from the classic gameplay...

Anyway, Sega probably didn't just decide to not release a main series Sonic game on the Saturn. There were a few attempts, they just didn't work out as expected. Sega had this weird strategy of rushing the next console out if the current one wasn't doing well, so the Saturn didn't even live as long as it could have.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:01 am 
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Just as a matter of course, the default thing to happen to any game is for it to fail and never come out. The games that do get released are the ones that you should wonder why they happened. ;)

Well over half of all commercial software projects fail, and most of them you never get to hear about. Failure is a bad look for a company, you tend to want to keep these things quiet if you can.

The Saturn didn't do well and it only had a few years window where a new Sonic game for it was viable. They tried, and failed, and then their time was up.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:36 am 
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Turning a 2D platform game into a 3D game is a vey difficult thing to do, especially one with such a big focus on its speed gimmick and huge stages as the Sonic games. I can't blame Sega for not being able to get it right on the Saturn. Looking at how the 3D Sonic games would eventually turn out on Dreamcast I can't even imagine how horrible the Saturn one must have been.

Although popular belief you make you think the Sonic games have a habit of getting worse and worse for each new release, I do feel Sega eventually got the hang of it over time, though. Sonic Heroes was a big step in the right direction, and even Sonic 06 has a few improvements over the DC games, whether you'd like to admit it or not. Generations is IMO an amazingly good game, too bad it took them 15 years after Mario 64 to get there. :(


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:53 am 
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Sumez wrote:
I can't blame Sega for not being able to get it right on the Saturn.

Or like, ever.

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Looking at how the 3D Sonic games would eventually turn out on Dreamcast I can't even imagine how horrible the Saturn one must have been.

The 3D world in Sonic Jam felt more like the classics than anything that came after it, IMO.

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Although popular belief you make you think the Sonic games have a habit of getting worse and worse for each new release, I do feel Sega eventually got the hang of it over time, though.

I guess it depends on whether you like the new gameplay style, which I really don't. The gameplay in 3D Sonic games is NOT the natural evolution of what the 2D gameplay was, it's something completely different.

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Sonic Heroes was a big step in the right direction, and even Sonic 06 has a few improvements over the DC games, whether you'd like to admit it or not.

Heroes doesn't seem to be remembered so fondly in the Sonic community. The team gimmick appears to have rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. For me, Heroes was actually the game that made me give up on the franchise. I didn't outright hate it, but the 2 Adventure titles and it were enough for me to realize that everything that made me a fan was gone.

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Generations is IMO an amazingly good game, too bad it took them 15 years after Mario 64 to get there. :(

From the little I played of Generations, the 2D gameplay was decent, even though the physics was a little off. But half of the game has the modern gameplay, unfortunately, which for me is absolutely no fun.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:16 am 
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tokumaru wrote:
I guess it depends on whether you like the new gameplay style, which I really don't. The gameplay in 3D Sonic games is NOT the natural evolution of what the 2D gameplay was, it's something completely different.

Neither is 3D Mario a natural evolution of 2D Mario, it's a different game, even if it shares some of the same general impressions. Galaxy at least is more towards classic Mario games than the very exploration heavy gameplay of 64 and especially Sunshine.
I actually think 3D Sonic (or at least where they got to following Unleashed) has some of the same elements as classic Sonic. Not in terms of platforming, but in terms of speeding through the game flawlessly, playing sort of like a racing/platform hybrid.

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From the little I played of Generations, the 2D gameplay was decent, even though the physics was a little off. But half of the game has the modern gameplay, unfortunately, which for me is absolutely no fun.

I definitely recommend picking up Generations again and going through it. I really enjoyed the 2D stages, which were pulled off MUCH better than Sonic 4 that came out around the same time - but I honestly think the 3D stages are the best part of the game, and I hated 3D Sonic up until that.

Like I said before, it plays a bit more like a racing game, and it has some of the same elements from the classic MegaDrive games, where keeping a good pace and nailing all the jumps etc. will keep you on the "top route" for a faster clear time and more bonuses, etc.
I especially recommend trying to pick a stage (start out with a relatively easy one that you hate the least - for me a good start was the Sky Sanctuary stage) and just go for every red ring and an S ranking. Though the requirements for S rankings are a little too low, it's still fun to try getting the best time. The red rings are always placed in a way that you can get them all throughout an ideal run of the stage, so you never have to go out of your way to pick them up. Instead they work as a guide to get the best time through the stage. When you get those runs where you nail every part of the "ideal path", that's when the game started to grow on me.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:33 pm 
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Sumez wrote:
Neither is 3D Mario a natural evolution of 2D Mario, it's a different game

I don't play 3D Mario either, but the games still sell really well, so Nintendo is probably doing something right. The same can't be said about Sonic.

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I actually think 3D Sonic (or at least where they got to following Unleashed) has some of the same elements as classic Sonic. Not in terms of platforming, but in terms of speeding through the game flawlessly, playing sort of like a racing/platform hybrid.

Zipping through the stages was not my favorite way to play the classics. The cool thing about classic Sonic was the freedom you had to play the games however you liked... You could go for the best possible time, or explore every corner and get every single ring and item, you could abuse the physics to pull off cool tricks, choose different routes each time... Go watch some playthroughs and you immediately see that everyone plays the classics differently. The modern games, on the other hand, are supposed to be played like movies, where everything is scripted. The closer you stick to the script, the higher you rank. That's no fun.

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I definitely recommend picking up Generations again and going through it.

I may give it a second try some day.

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I really enjoyed the 2D stages, which were pulled off MUCH better than Sonic 4 that came out around the same time

Sonic 4 was a travesty, its physics were a joke! I wouldn't even consider touching another Sonic game with physics like that.

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- but I honestly think the 3D stages are the best part of the game, and I hated 3D Sonic up until that.

I just don't like running fast, doing acrobatics, dashing, or homing attacking... That's a completely different gameplay style that I really dislike, and the fact that it's a blue hedgehog doing those things doesn't change anything for me. If the blue hedgehog doesn't play like he did when I fell in love with him, I'm not interested.

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When you get those runs where you nail every part of the "ideal path", that's when the game started to grow on me.

I don't want to be told how to play. I want to succeed playing my way. That's actually something that bothers me about modern gaming in general... Games got so cinematic that you're required to play a certain way for things to work as the developers intended. I'd much rather be given a world with rules and a goal, and have the freedom to reach that goal any way I see fit.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:45 pm 
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I honestly think the old Sonic games are the same. They definitely expected you to play the stages in specific ways for the optimal path through.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:56 pm 
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Even if that was the case, at least the game didn't punish you for trying different things. The physics and level layouts is what I miss the most about the classics. The simplistic storytelling (if any!) is also something I appreciate.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:11 pm 
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Definitely agreed about those.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:54 pm 
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Yeah, I don't understand why they have to have such a complicated story now days. What's wrong with just "You're a blue hedgehog and you run really fast" It's not really the story that matters, all that really matters in my opinion is the gameplay. I mean, they're called Video GAMES instead of interactive movies for a reason! And I'd imagine that taking the classic Sonic atmosphere and putting it into the 3rd dimension would be easy, because what works in 2D doesn't always work in 3D.
I think the closest that Sega's gotten to a 3d classic Sonic game was Sonic Lost World, except they completely removed Sonic's speed. The one thing that he's known for. All that Sonic does is walk. Maybe that's the reason that the Sonic franchise isn't doing so well. In their attempts to try to be more story based, they're basically killing their own franchise. And to prove my point, just look at the Mario series, it's been running for 36 years, and is still as strong as ever, and it's games barely even have a story, it's still just "Save the princess from Bowser!" Sega is basically sacrificing gameplay for a good storyline.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:55 pm 
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DementedPurple wrote:
Yeah, I don't understand why they have to have such a complicated story now days. What's wrong with just "You're a blue hedgehog and you run really fast" It's not really the story that matters, all that really matters in my opinion is the gameplay. I mean, they're called Video GAMES instead of interactive movies for a reason!

I completely‚Äč agree with you, but a lot of people seem to dig complex storylines in Sonic games. In Sonic forums you see a lot of talk between people trying to stich all the games together, coming up with timelines and such... I find that extremely boring and unnecessary, I've hardly ever even read a game's manual in my life. Of course that the fact I didn't understand English at all back when I was a kid contributed to this, since many of my games were imported.

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I think the closest that Sega's gotten to a 3d classic Sonic game was Sonic Lost World

I found the aesthetics of Lost World to be a huge step in the right direction (unlike all the realistic environments of most other 3D games), but I never played it. The general consensus in the Sonic fandom is that it's not a good Sonic game though.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:59 pm 
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tokumaru wrote:
I found the aesthetics of Lost World to be a huge step in the right direction (unlike all the realistic environments of most other 3D games), but I never played it. The general consensus in the Sonic fandom is that it's not a good Sonic game though.


Yeah, the physics in general throw anyone who's played a Genesis Sonic game off. He runs slow, he jumps slow, and he has basically no momentum. In the 2d segments, when you walk right for a while and then start walking the other direction, he turns instantly. But yes, the aesthetics are one of the redeeming factors of this game. The environments in the original 3 games are what brought me to the series, The bright colors and waterfalls of Green Hill Zone have always blew me away. In the Sonic '06 setting however, the landscape was dull and boring, and Sonic stuck out like a sore thumb, I mean you have a bunch of ordinary looking people in an ordinary looking city and then you have a blue hedgehog standing on it's hinds wearing red shoes and has one mutant eye controlling two pupils.


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