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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:48 am 
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Late to this thread - I've been avoiding it due to really not caring about canon in video games, and thinking that the developers ever cared about those things seems kinda naive to me. In my book, Cranky Kong will always be the original Donkey Kong, as that's how the original DKC continually made sure to cement it. It was a funny joke that's utilized both in the manual and then again several times throughout the game, and a fun part of DKC's overall fourth wall breaking. It's taken even further in the sequel where Diddy competes to be the best video game hero ever, with the game's ending comparing him to Link and Mario, and actually having the guts to show a pair of Sonic's shoes next to a trashbin.

But this is all Rare and their games. Looking at the original Donkey Kong games, they are their own thing. They were never intended to expand beyond the original three games, and Mario is mostly a bad guy, more than he's the hero - DKJR straight up paints him as the adversary, but even in the original game, the promotional material sets up Donkey Kong as Mario's rival, rather than a straight up villain (something I guess mimicks the originally intended Popeye theme).

I guess it's fun to discuss these things and what-ifs, etc. but you can be sure Nintendo really don't care about it. It makes just as much sense as taking "Game Theory" seriously. :)

So a few comments to some of the old posts:

FrankenGraphics wrote:
Right - he does kill the joker in the end, doesn't he? Just looked at the end fight on youtube, and first he's punching the joker off the tower (attempted murder?). When the joker is making his escape, he anchors him to a gargoyle with the grapple hook, inevitably dooming him.

But who did he shoot, except a garage door?

I can't find it on YouTube, but there's a scene in either this movie or the sequel where Batman crawls into his armored batmobile as he fires a volley of machinegun shots straight into a bunch of small-time crooks on the street. I mean, one thing is killing The Joker, but I think just blatantly executing minor bad guys is pretty disturbing. It's not just a compromise of one of Batman's classic characteristics (which, to be fair, has been an on/off thing throughout the gold and silver ages), but it turns him into a pretty brutal murderer, too. I would love these two movies if it weren't for that one disturbing deviance.

Pokun wrote:
As a Swede I (thankfully) wasn't exposed to the American Super Mario Super Show though.

You really didn't? In Denmark we had both the original and the SMB3 show (which was actually shown first, as it was on a larger channel that would get newer shows), and they got rerun constantly every single morning. Man I watched the hell out of those, and I probably have to admit owing a lot of headcanon to those shows. The most popular one being that stupid thing about Mario and Luigi coming from Brooklyn. It actually made me happy when Yoshi's Island came out and Nintendo made sure to wipe out that misconception forever :P


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:25 am 
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Pokun wrote:
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From the deleopers point of view: Retconning the Koopalings from being Bowser's children doesn't mean that these old games are thrown out of the continuity. It just means that they are retroactively not his children anymore, i.e. Bowser didn't give the seven magic wands of the Mushroom World kings to his children, but to his minions in SMB3.
I see, so it fits in both timelines if you ignore the fact that Koopa introduces them as his kids in the SMB3 manual. I still don't like it though.

I'm surprised no one commented on this, or maybe I missed it, but I think you should keep in mind that the Japanese developers of the game usually don't care about what's said in the foreign versions of the manuals. But I'm traditional too, so just like the princess will always be "Toadstool" in my book, and the king of Koopas' name is "Bowser", the koopalings are also Bowser's kids.

But none of these were ever the case in Japan, I think that is also "common knowledge" by now? The Japanese manual makes no reference to the koopalings being Bowser's kids, and even the name "Bowser" was made up in the same English manual, as he was only referred to as "The king of koopas" earlier on, which also explains why he never had the "Bowser" name in the cartoon show either. However, koopa always referred to the entire tribe of turtle creatures in the west, but in Japan, Koopa/Kupa is straight up Bowser's name, while the turtles are called nokonoko. Basically, it's all messed up due to translators taking too many freedoms back in the 80s.
I believe the koopalings were also only given names in the west alongside all the enemies who also got similar names based on popular (and some less popular) musicians.

It's kind of funny how Nintendo went with retconning some of these, while never touching the others (kind of like how the names of the three boss characters from Street Fighter II remains screwed up in the west, even today). The name "Peach" was introduced in Mario 64 alongside "Toadstool" as a kind of nickname, but from that point on, no one would ever refer to her as Toadstool again. Meanwhile the concept of the koopalings being Bowser's kids was just quietly forgotten as Bowser Jr got introduced, and the koopalings were completely missing in action until their surprising return in NSMBW.
However, "Bowser" and "Koopa" remains messed up, but I'd say it's probably too late to change that at this point.


Oh man, now it looks like I care about video game canon.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:33 am 
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Sumez wrote:
The most popular one being that stupid thing about Mario and Luigi coming from Brooklyn. It actually made me happy when Yoshi's Island came out and Nintendo made sure to wipe out that misconception forever :P

The Brooklyn story is cool. I like Mario as an actual Italian.

This also explained why there's a guy with a modern cap and work trousers running around in an environment with castles, princesses, kings and antropomorphic turtles and mushrooms in oriental vests.
(After all, Link doesn't run around with a basecap, jeans and a sweatshirt, being called Steve.)

That "Yoshi's Island" story was really a disappointment to me.


About Bowser's kids: Are you sure that this wasn't mentioned in the Japanese manual?

About their names: In the ending of "Super Mario World", their names are shown on-screen, even in the Japanese version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v9CBPJZh0I&t=34m28s
So, this one was canonized from America.


By the way, what do you think about the stage play theory of "Super Mario Bros. 3"?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:31 am 
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DRW wrote:
This also explained why there's a guy with a modern cap and work trousers running around in an environment with castles, princesses, kings and antropomorphic turtles and mushrooms in oriental vests.

This is exactly the kind of thing that doesn't need explaining.
Mario is a character, a stereotype, and a large part of his design is based both on technical limitations and simple ideals. Miyamoto wanted Mario to be relatable, hard working character, and it makes sense that he's less fantastical than the world he is in. I guess that does go well with the "brooklyn" story, but I also think that starting to make actual real life locations a part of Mario canon pretty much ruins the video game world for me. As usual, the real answer here is that "it doesn't matter". Mario may be an italian, but that doesn't mean Italy exists. Video game logic at its best.

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About Bowser's kids: Are you sure that this wasn't mentioned in the Japanese manual?

About their names: In the ending of "Super Mario World", their names are shown on-screen, even in the Japanese version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v9CBPJZh0I&t=34m28s
So, this one was canonized from America.

Thanks for clearing this up. Yeah, they did pick up a few things, such as Doki Doki Panic being a Mario game, cemented with the release of Super Mario USA.
I'm absolutely positive about the Japanese manual. You can see for yourself here:

Image
I can't read Japanese, so I'm not sure exactly how it words their relation to Bowser/Koopa, but you can see that while the artwork is the same, no names are present in the Japanese version.


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By the way, what do you think about the stage play theory of "Super Mario Bros. 3"?

It's stupid if you take it literally. As usual the correct answer here is "why should you care?". The stage play is a fun visual style that was realistic to implement on an NES, and it was very common for video games at the time to do something like that. So the story of Mario Bros. 3 "wasn't real"? Well yeah, it's a video game, of course it wasn't real. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:06 am 
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Sumez wrote:
I guess that does go well with the "brooklyn" story, but I also think that starting to make actual real life locations a part of Mario canon pretty much ruins the video game world for me.

Well, it has some kind of "Alice in Wonderland" or "Wizard of Oz" feeling. (The former being an actual inspiration for the games.) Making Mario an actual regular citizen of the Mushroom Kingdom: Meh.

Also, even the real world in the Mario canon would be exaggerated. It would have giant gorillas that kidnap women, self-aware fireballs and all that stuff from "Donkey Kong" and "Mario Bros."

Sumez wrote:
I'm absolutely positive about the Japanese manual. You can see for yourself here:
[...]
I can't read Japanese, so I'm not sure exactly how it words their relation to Bowser/Koopa, but you can see that while the artwork is the same, no names are present in the Japanese version.

I knew that they didn't have names in their original appearance.
But I brought up the manual in relation to the question whether they are referred as Bowser's children. This is still open for debate until someone can translate this for us.

Sumez wrote:
Quote:
By the way, what do you think about the stage play theory of "Super Mario Bros. 3"?

It's stupid if you take it literally. As usual the correct answer here is "why should you care?". The stage play is a fun visual style that was realistic to implement on an NES, and it was very common for video games at the time to do something like that. So the story of Mario Bros. 3 "wasn't real"? Well yeah, it's a video game, of course it wasn't real. :)

I have something to say about it that many people don't realize:

So, even Miyamoto confirmed that it is a stage play. So, what? This doesn't mean that it's a stage play in-universe.
It's just that Mario's third adventure is presented like that to us.

All those people saying: "SMB3 never happened. It was just a stage play created by Mario and his friends."
No, it was not. It was a "stage play" created by Nintendo for the players, not a stage play that was performed inside the Mushroom Kingdom. Mario is the role, not the actor.

"Castlevania" is also presented as a movie. But this doesn't mean that Simon Belmont and his old pal Vlad Dracula made a movie together.

This way, both facts are true:
Yes, it is a stage play. That's pretty obvious from the graphics.
No, it's not an in-universe stage play created by Mario. As far as the Mario canon is concerned, the story is a real adventure like the other games and "Super Mario World" is what happened afterwards.

"Yoshi's Story" is a book, "Castlevania" is a movie and "Super Mario Bros. 3" is a stage play. But all of those stories still played out "for real" in their canons.
Otherwise, you can say that the Montagues and the Capulets were not really enemies because it was just, well, a play.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:48 pm 
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I agree.
I think that Mario acting as different roles should be put first and foremost in games that differs from his main series. Like when he is refereeing, go-karting, wrecking crew member, F-Zero pilot android etc. It's like in Donald Duck comics where Donald suddenly is a brave knight in the middle ages fighting dragons or when Popeye and Brutus takes various roles in cartoons while their personalities and rivality are mostly the same. He's both Mario Mario and an actor playing a Mario.

The question is if Donkey Kong series still counts as the main series, probably not.

DRW wrote:
O.k., to make sure I didn't misunderstand you, let's put this together:

Question 1:
In "Super Mario Bros. 3", do you think that small Mario has regular size while Super Mario is a giant?
Or do you think that small Mario is a dwarf while Super Mario has regular size?

Question 2:
In "Super Mario Bros. 3", do you think that Princess Toadstool and Toad have regular size or are they giants?

(With regular size I'm not talking about "default" size. Which one is the default is not important here. I'm talking about the actual absolute values. Regular size would be something like 1.55 m (or maybe 1.30 for Toad) to 2.10 m. Giant would mean 3 m and dwarf means 70 cm.)
1: I'm not sure, it's possible they had already decided that the big Mario is his natural size at the time of SMB3. But I think it wasn't something carefully planned, it probably just happened in that case, and after that it was just natural.

2: They are definitely sized like normal humans as in all other games. So I guess that's regular size.

Sumez wrote:
Pokun wrote:
As a Swede I (thankfully) wasn't exposed to the American Super Mario Super Show though.

You really didn't? In Denmark we had both the original and the SMB3 show (which was actually shown first, as it was on a larger channel that would get newer shows), and they got rerun constantly every single morning. Man I watched the hell out of those, and I probably have to admit owing a lot of headcanon to those shows. The most popular one being that stupid thing about Mario and Luigi coming from Brooklyn. It actually made me happy when Yoshi's Island came out and Nintendo made sure to wipe out that misconception forever :P
I didn't. I had only 3 TV channels (SVT1 and SVT2 they are like the Japanese NHK) and TV4. All other channels would require you to have a dish on your roof to get satellite channels back then. So it's possible the show was running on one of those channels but I don't remember any of my friends with a dish talking about a Mario show.
We did rent a tape with the show on once though. But we just wanted to see the Mario cartoons and was freaked out by the strange humour, weird rapping and what not that was in between the cartoons. My dad was actually angry that he had allowed us to rent such a weird show.
But I wasn't entirely shielded from the Brooklyn Mario, the Swedish Nintendo Magazine had Voyager's Mario, Zelda, Captain N and Super Mario Land comics. They all tie in pretty well with the corresponding animated series (a bit more serious though, and Link didn't use his sword as a gun).

Sumez wrote:
Pokun wrote:
Quote:
From the deleopers point of view: Retconning the Koopalings from being Bowser's children doesn't mean that these old games are thrown out of the continuity. It just means that they are retroactively not his children anymore, i.e. Bowser didn't give the seven magic wands of the Mushroom World kings to his children, but to his minions in SMB3.
I see, so it fits in both timelines if you ignore the fact that Koopa introduces them as his kids in the SMB3 manual. I still don't like it though.

I'm surprised no one commented on this, or maybe I missed it, but I think you should keep in mind that the Japanese developers of the game usually don't care about what's said in the foreign versions of the manuals. But I'm traditional too, so just like the princess will always be "Toadstool" in my book, and the king of Koopas' name is "Bowser", the koopalings are also Bowser's kids.

But none of these were ever the case in Japan, I think that is also "common knowledge" by now? The Japanese manual makes no reference to the koopalings being Bowser's kids, and even the name "Bowser" was made up in the same English manual, as he was only referred to as "The king of koopas" earlier on, which also explains why he never had the "Bowser" name in the cartoon show either. However, koopa always referred to the entire tribe of turtle creatures in the west, but in Japan, Koopa/Kupa is straight up Bowser's name, while the turtles are called nokonoko. Basically, it's all messed up due to translators taking too many freedoms back in the 80s.
I believe the koopalings were also only given names in the west alongside all the enemies who also got similar names based on popular (and some less popular) musicians.

It's kind of funny how Nintendo went with retconning some of these, while never touching the others (kind of like how the names of the three boss characters from Street Fighter II remains screwed up in the west, even today). The name "Peach" was introduced in Mario 64 alongside "Toadstool" as a kind of nickname, but from that point on, no one would ever refer to her as Toadstool again. Meanwhile the concept of the koopalings being Bowser's kids was just quietly forgotten as Bowser Jr got introduced, and the koopalings were completely missing in action until their surprising return in NSMBW.
However, "Bowser" and "Koopa" remains messed up, but I'd say it's probably too late to change that at this point.
No one commented because my statement wasn't wrong. You even posted a page of the Japanese SMB3 manual where King Koopa says this: "ワッハハ。これから俺様の息子達がこのゲームを説明するぜ。" ("Wahaha. From here on the mighty yours truly's own children will explain the game."). So it was canon in Japan all along and not something made up by the translators (the word for Koopaling is kokuppa where ko means small or child). The Koopa kids' names were made by NOA as you say, so I guess it was too late for them to appear in the Japanese manual. But they are canon as DRW proved (just as Mario and Luigi themselves that also had their names invented by NOA and their family name by Hollywood :lol:).

Bowser and Toadstool are names invented by the translators, but I think it's kind of funny that American media used Koopa although I don't recall any non-Japanese Mario game that ever used that name. And I think the spelling is funny as it's actually pronounced Kuppa (short "u" and long "p"). "Koopa" implies a long vowel. It's the canon spelling though and even used in Japanese games like SMW.

The turtle clan are called kame ichizoku (among other things) which literary means turtle clan or tribe. I guess they retconned King Koopa to be Bowser Koopa (Koopa being the clan name works well with the Nokonoko's English names) or they intended Koopa to be the clan name all along. But I can't recall to have ever seen the name Bowser in a Japanese game, nor have I seen Koopa in a non-Japanese game (for referring to Bowser), so I'm not sure. It's obvious though that Nokonoko, Hammer Bros, Jugemu (Lakitu), Bunbun, Kuppa himself, his kids and all other turtle-based enemies were supposed to be part of this invading turtle tribe.

As a kid I thought Toadstool was simply her last name because you wouldn't refer to a princess in first-name-terms. But we do that all the time with real royalty (as long as you attach the royal title), I don't know why I thought that. But anyway I guess they retconned her whole name to be Peach Toadstool universally, but the name Toadstool hasn't really been used again since Mario 64. Also the Shindou Edition of Mario 64 (and the DS version) are the only Japanese Mario games I've seen that the name Toadstool have been used in a Japanese Mario game. And that is obviously because the voice clip where she reads up her own letter was made for the English version (the actual letter in Japanese only contains the name Peach).


Last edited by Pokun on Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:52 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:23 pm 
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Pokun wrote:
And I think the spelling is funny as it's actually pronounced Kuppa (short "u" and long "p"). "Koopa" implies a long vowel. It's the canon spelling though and even used in Japanese games like SMW.
Japanese "short u" is not american english "short u".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/Japanese
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_phonology

It is definitely not "kuppa" like "do you want a cuppa tea?"


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:29 pm 
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Yeah I meant like Swedish or Italian "u". An English counterpart might not exist, it's kind of like "oo" in "food" but shorter. I think the use of "k" instead of "c" kind of signalize a non-English Germanic pronunciation.
Double p might also be confusing because English spelling rules aren't consistent about consonant quantity.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:33 am 
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DRW wrote:
So, even Miyamoto confirmed that it is a stage play. So, what? This doesn't mean that it's a stage play in-universe.
It's just that Mario's third adventure is presented like that to us.

Spot on


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:27 am 
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My previous post ended up a bit confusing. The name Koopa have been in the games all along as the name of the Koopa clan's footsoldiers the Koopa Troopa, so I guess the name was supposed to be the clan name all along in English version (in Japanese it was still just the name of Bowser). It's possible they where named before Bowser got his name change though, but American Mario media pretty much canonized Koopa to be his last name in English version (and possibly retconned in Japanese, although I haven't seen any indication of that).

BTW the Goomba are according to various sources (at least Smash Bros Melee) a species of mushrooms (although their Japanese name Kuriboo refers to their resemblance to kuri, a Japanese type of edible chestnut) that is native to the Mushroom Kingdom but joined the turtle clan when they invaded their land. I'd like to know if any other sources than Melee makes this claim. My friend said he knew it before Melee was released but I have no idea where he heard that from as it's not mentioned in any game manual that I remember.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:00 am 
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"Little Goomba: A mushroom who betrayed the Mushroom Kingdom. One stomp and he dies. 100 PTS."
-- Super Mario Bros./Duck Hunt (U) instruction manual

DRW wrote:
The manual isn't written from anybody's point of view. The manual doesn't exist in-universe, it's the narrating description for us in the real world to explain the story of a game. If the manual says the Koopa Troopers are the invaders, then that's the case simply because the manual stating it makes it true.

A manual to control Mario is assumed to be written from the point of view of someone controlling Mario. Thus because Mario is helping the Toads, the manual presents the Toads' side of the story.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:42 am 
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tepples wrote:
A manual to control Mario is assumed to be written from the point of view of someone controlling Mario. Thus because Mario is helping the Toads, the manual presents the Toads' side of the story.

The manual is still a real world object where the story is told like in a novel, not as if it was written by a character from within the game.

And objective facts (like "The Koopa tribe invaded the Mushroom Kingdom") are objective facts. They can be the truth or they can be lies, but there is no "point of view" at all here.
(If I hit you with a bat, my point of view is not that you hit me with a bat.)

And the theory that the manual text is "propaganda by the Mushroom Kingdom people", i.e. lies, is nonsense. It's not written in a style as if some in-universe character wrote this text. It's written like a narrator who tells a story.

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Last edited by DRW on Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:44 am 
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tepples wrote:
"Little Goomba: A mushroom who betrayed the Mushroom Kingdom. One stomp and he dies. 100 PTS."
-- Super Mario Bros./Duck Hunt (U) instruction manual


It also says this in the Scandinavian version of the original game (non Duck Hunt version). It's another one of those things I have grown up always believing even if every single Mario game that came after has been ignoring this completely. I'm actually surprised to find out this was also the case in the Japanese manual.

Another thing I miss from the original manual is how Koopa was described as a powerful wizard. Nowadays he's mostly just a comical vilain.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:25 am 
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I see, I must have forgotten that. I don't have my NES games anymore but I do have the Famicom version of SMB. I just digged it up from my collection and the Japanese manual do indeed says the exact same thing about Kuriboo. OK thanks, then that's settled.

Reading the story I noticed one thing:
"ある日、強力な魔法を操る大ガメクッパの一族が侵略して来ました。" (One day, the large turtle Kuppa clan who possessed powerful magic, came and invaded them [the Mushroom Kingdom].)
This could be interpreted either as Kuppa being the name of the clan, or a person named Kuppa who has a clan. I guess the translators went for the former and Koopa became the clan name, while Japanese games don't talk about the clan any more after SMB, so the name Kuppa isn't used for anything but the big bad. And this is basically what caused all the confusion I think.

King Koopa is described as Daimaou Kuppa (大魔王クッパ) in the manual, which means Great Demon King Kuppa (a very common title for villains in fiction). It does say they are capable of powerful magic, but so does Peach who is the only one that can counter the curse. Koopa is a turtle demon that can probably do demon magic but I think wizard sounds a bit weird. Where did they say he is a wizard? In the English manual they just say they are using black magic.

But yeah besides turning the Mushroom people into bricks in SMB they don't seem to use a lot of magic anymore? Koopa uses things like power stars in SM64 to create new worlds or the star rod in Paper Mario and so on, but I don't remember him using his own magic.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:36 am 
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Or did the Magikoopas under Bowser's command shoot old EA logos and PlayStation button symbols at the Toads to turn them into blocks?

Image Image
Magikoopa and where he got his fashion sense


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